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  • Metal_Greg
    Original poster 86 posts

    so, everything has mitigation right? status builds have haz pro, skill builds have jammer, but what about weapon builds? well the only thing I can think of is skill builds. skill builds are the mitigation for weapon builds and that's the real reason most PVPers complain about them. Look at the Shrapnel trap for example, it directly combats the way weapon build players rush in at you, and they absolutely hate it because of that. skill builds force a more tactical and cover-based play-style. The meta weapon builds are the exact opposite, all they do is put up their shield and shoot. Then they complain when skill builds put them down and claim skill builds are OP. when in reality, it's weapon builds that are OP. Weapon builds can have tons of armor plus a shield and still melt people no prob, skill builds at the max can have 913k armor, excluding things like the kard and the memento. technically you could put more armor on a skill build but since skill tiers are more than just damage you basically need skill tier 6. skill builds can be mitigated with jammer or by destroying their skills. weapon builds can only be mitigated with distance and maybe riot foam or a blinder. but if someone with more than 1 mil armor goes rogue and pulls out a shield right by you and you're a skill build there's basically nothing you can do.

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  • RichardOshea
    167 posts

    Hi,

    I'm going to save you a lot of time and stress: Find a brick wall and beat your head against it for 12 months. That's your conversation with the PvP community done. As for the developer, they have by and large resisted excluding skill from DZ and Conflict, but they do listen to that minority too closely hence the endless nerfing of skills in PvP whilst being willfully ignorant to the many many OP aspects of gun play.

    I'd ask them to nerf In-Sync but that would be shooting all my skill builds in the foot. Yep the primary gun talent run in PvP is a skill talent. The hypocricy that lot can stomach is way beyond my reasoning.


  • Andrewszed
    1 posts

    OP I think you hit the nail on the head. All red builds with 🛡 wanna run up and blast you in your face. It's like that's all they know. While also complaining about getting set on fire, blown up from traps, jammed, bleeding and always say the same thing. One button no skill players. I think it's freaking hilarious 🤣😂😆😭. All red builds cannot be the end all for any pvp play period. That is too boring. Yet many papers cannot change their play style thus call for nerfs to skills constantly. It's been going on since td1 when pvpers complained about seekers and stickies and fire turrets until the game was toast. I remember when they complained about losing xp and keys early division1 and saying the penalty was too stiff. Bunch of babies that's all they are.

    But good luck, I think pounding sand may net better results than conversations with pvpers about skills. Yet they use the 🛡 with emp or decoy WHICH are skills.

  • Merphee
    39 posts

    There is no convenient way to debuff weapon damage compared to how easy it is to equip a skill to completely destroy a skill. You'll have to throw on an entire gear set in order to apply a damage debuff onto an enemy.

    People asked for fire to be nerfed in PVP, I was like "why not just buff the hazard protection percentage?" Look at who won, though.

    I have two level 100 Conflict characters and I pretty much lost respect for PVP once I realized people were complaining about the Liberty. Might as well throw on Claws out and make a fist build.




  • RichardOshea
    167 posts

    @merphee The way we debuffed their obsene levels of damage that could burst kill a skill build in under a second was by doing that to them first with skills. But nope: "I can't react";"It's OP";"It needs no aim" and a few hundred more BS whinny excuses for a lack of imagination and an idle tendency to not want to up their game. Give them a tier 0 jammer that nukes teir 6 skills: not enough. Give them 30% of a skill builds skill power and let them keep their gun damage as well: not enough. Nerf every skill to well below lethal levels ensuring that the skill needs a second shot giving you the TTK disadvantage: not enough. And on and on: I have no respect for most of them either. Some of them are OK and if you splat them with a skill they just get on with it and switch up their builds. But they are few and far between and the only PvPers I see with any skill at all.

  • Sircowdog1
    77 posts

    PVP in division games has always been the most broken, badly balanced thing I've ever seen in my nearly 35 years of gaming.

    IMO the less of your life you spend thinking about it, much less playing it, the better off you'll be.

  • Metal_Greg
    Original poster 86 posts

    I'd ask them to nerf In-Sync but that would be shooting all my skill builds in the foot. Yep the primary gun talent run in PvP is a skill talent. The hypocricy that lot can stomach is way beyond my reasoning.



    they should just make in-sync no longer proc with a sheild. cus that's obviously not the intended use case for that talent.

  • RichardOshea
    167 posts

    @metal_greg I agree, but I'm so tired of trying to argue for skills in the DZ. If they want to ruin it then let them, I tried to save it for them but they wouldn't listen. Crappy cheat fest in there now. Dead Zone is what I call it.

  • Metal_Greg
    Original poster 86 posts

    @richardoshea I think the only way to please em would be to make one of the DZs constantly EMPed. That way, they could all be over there and we don't have to hear em whine about our skill builds.

  • RichardOshea
    167 posts

    @metal_greg I don't think they could ever be pleased. It killed me nerf it. Sums them up well enough. Nerf-to-win. Whine-to-victory. Complaint-champions. [censored] at real PvP!

  • Sircowdog1
    77 posts

    @metal_greg Ive seen this suggestion a number of times, and it always makes sense to me. A DZ where there's real scarcity of everything. No skills, no radar, minimal HUD. Hell, I think even armor kits should be rare, and health should regenerate EXTREMELY slow.

    Basically a hardcore mode. But then I imagine everyone would just snipe. And then people would start calling for nerfs to MMRs. It's a no win situation. Best to just remove PVP entirely. Or eventually the nerfs will stack up so hard that we'll be down to a melee only DZ.

  • RichardOshea
    167 posts

    What's worse about those types, aside from being spoilt children trying to get their own way, is that they didn't really give a damn about the game. Almost none of them are here today.

  • TxDieselKid
    152 posts

    Skill builds actually are not used too often in PvP. Sure they exist, but usually only in a team environment (maybe 1 person on a team in Conflict), and even then, it's not every match you see them. A 6 tier skill build with a explosive sticky should be OP AF, just like the meta LD with Addy/Intim running 6 reds.

    One of the best "easy" improvements they could make for PvP would be to increase the TTK back. You could double it at this point actually and it would help a lot.

  • ModalThread611
    97 posts

    You can't be serious? I can make an all blue armor core shrapnel trap build ZERO yellow cores, use hardwired and a bulwark and spam traps. This all blue armor shrapnel trap build can drop an entire team. That is the most broken thing in the game. That is the reason people hate skill builds. They deal way to much damage in pvp, they do 2 types of damage. Debuffs have no hard counter. Oxidizer is a debuff hazard and booster do nothing for it. Same as the dumb pestilence debuff, no amount of hazard will stop it nor will a booster. Why do skills need to do two types of damage in pvp? Fire sticky hazard you say, ok sure I have a 1.5 million armor 90% hazard and can take it to 100% with mods. This is supposed to be a hazard build with some weak damage. Incoming fire sticky just took half of my armor. So now I can die to the over powered bullets from a capacitor all from a little helpless skill build. Ok, now lets say I have no hazard and a fire chem and sticky are being used on me. I have a booster and a jammer. They can spam fire chem faster then I could ever jam. Not only that I have to get so close I for sure will get hit by both and die. Why, well my booster is gone since it only has 12 charges and my jammer is on a long cool down and I cannot pop an armor kit fast enough. I cannot ADS I am helpless to a supposed helpless skill build. really no one runs around with an all red build in pvp. We use anywhere from 1.1 to 1.5 for some damage and some armor. Yet still get wiped easily by these 2 damage dealing skill and status builds. Oh you say you need hazard and explosion resistance ok sure. So now I have both and deal zero damage to any build. I will do less gun damage then a yellow build with the capacitor. Yeah that makes sense. Talk about banging your head into a brick wall and making people understand the real reason we hate skill and status builds instead of making things up.

  • ModalThread611
    97 posts

    @sircowdog1 It might be better if the devs cared about pvp enough to really balance it.

  • ModalThread611
    97 posts

    @txdieselkid That is so false. I see teams of skill builds. People die to bullets a few times and the entire server resorts to OP skill and status builds.

  • ModalThread611
    97 posts

    @metal_greg I could have 1.3 to 1.5 and if I am not paying attenion I am dead by any type of build.

  • Sircowdog1
    77 posts

    @modalthread611 I actually disagree with this.

    While it's true that a dev who cares will generally do a better job, that isn't going to change the nature of how the balance and dynamic differences of PVP and PVE clash. A dev can be as well-meaning as they like, but it isn't going to change the underlying fundamentals of the game(cover system, weapon recoil & handling, movement speed, etc).

    If PVP actually got all the care and love and design changes it needed to be good, it would be a VERY different and separate game entirely. At which point it no longer makes sense to have it contained within the larger PVE division game. This is why games such as Apex or R6S or WZ are so much better from a PVP standpoint: They have no PVE side of things to interfere with the focus of the development flow. And I suspect that's what's going to happen with Heartland as well(although it's not a guarantee of quality).

  • YodaMan3D
    0 posts

    @modalthread611

    I admit you put up a good argument. Only response I have is that your narrative isn't my experience at all. I will be the 1st to admit, I don't PvP in TD2. Don't buy into the Ganker Playstyle. So when I get downed in the DZ, it isn't Skill Players that do it. It is always a group that shoots me in the back while I am in the thick of it with some NPC. It's the DZ, there is only one rule. Shoot 1st. So instead of letting the SBs drop their skills. Just shoot them 1st, you will survive longer.

    I don't think that all PvP players hate SBs, It's a certain playstyle, the ones who want to run up in their gank squads, dance around in a circle, and shoot each other in the face just like they did in TD. While doing that they would drop their healing skills that made them immune.

    To me, 1st. Give the PvE players their no PvP DZ.
    2nd. Keep one Invaded. For those who love PvEvP.
    3rd. Make the last a bare knuckled zone. Put Jammers every where. No skills, No heals. Just Guns and Damage.
    4th. Start making new DZs. One for every player who isn't happy with what the other DZ is about.

    It was always a bad idea for the Devs to make a game that focused for One to have fun, they have to ruining Someone Else. Until we can all be willing to play our own game and too many refuse to be open-minded and listen. Here is where we stay.

  • TxDieselKid
    152 posts

    @modalthread611 Just curious, what platform are you on? Not only do I play the DZ with some regularity, I also tend to watch some streamers who mostly PvP when I'm not at home able to play. We seem to have much different experiences overall.

    I was in a manhunt this weekend (got up to level 55 I think before we allowed NPC's to kill us to keep from letting others get the rewards since we were high priority), and saw 2 other level 50+ manhunts this weekend and none of those had skill builds....

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