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  • xcel30
    Original poster 257 posts

    This is going to be a long rambling about some aspects of the game balance that i think could change, but once again this is just my going on stuff that i could be horribly wrong, it's not something i expect to be implemented, its stuff that i think could be presented as an alternative to discussion and pass the time honestly and i feel that a lot of people will probably really dislike my view on things so it might be better to see as random guy on the internet yelling at clouds than de facto opinion how everything is wrong and i hate you.

    Rifles, ARs, Shotguns and Pistols: i always felt that these weapons had a bit of wrong extra stat for their archtype, Rifles should have % Armor damage bonus. ARs should have CD since they are similar to SMGs in magazine size, rof, reload speed and others, they have more natural range and accuracy so it made sense they would get the "lesser" stat that is crit damage while not weak is less direct and easy to use as crit chance fo SMGs. Shotguns on the other hand should be a counterpoint to snipers, focus on indiscriminated heavy hitters for damage with no worry about accuracy and should have gotten % Body shot damage instead, that should count anything that isn't a weakpoint or "headshot" as part of the body, similar to what health damage does with heavy armors and mechanical enemies, it would allow them to keep their niche of close range and not guns that you aim for headshot while still being better. Pistols should just get the % Health damage bonus, a bit like in D1 where they did more damage to damaged enemies the same would apply here to "enemies without armor" since pistols suck against body armor.

    Optimal range & Accuracy: Honestly the optimal range stat should be removed, not in the sense that guns no longer have drop off, but it's not something it can roll in gear anymore, might be kept in few taletns such as "safety distance" SMG, but instead be merged with accuracy, if you have 20% more accuracy you have 20% more range. Nobody will sacrifice other options for JUST range, and this would be a small bump into making accuracy more interesting as well the Weapon handling stat.

    Skills and charges: I do think more skills should work with charge system, such as cluster seeker mines that player would be able to control how many to they want to throw and each individual one would be a charge, this way players would low skill tiers would be of course unable to hit that many enemies and would suffer from individual cooldowns with low damage, but higher skill players would be able to have more controls if they want ot a single enemy with many charges or one go individually, devs could put a cap on how many you can throw at once against a single enemy in quick sucession if they think it would be cheesy or play with cooldown and chages amount better.

    I also think that the firefly variants that tagets ONLY weakpoints and the one with proximty bombs should just be merged into a single skill that does both (you release at an enemy and it attacks their weakpoint if they have any and plants a bomb even if they don't have a weakpoint) and a new one focused on either hacking or disabling and shocking eletronics should be made in the vacant slot, could be a single target that either attaches to skills and makes them turn against your enemies or just attach and start zapping them and doing more and more shock damage to eletronics over a medium period of time, heck maybe even heal you based on the amount of damage it caused to an enemy skill as an alternative healing skill.

    Granades and status effect: I honestly think that granades need to DRASTICLY get a damage buff to scale better or even make them be based on enemy health, frags always cause 50% of the enemy health and cause bleed, the concussion that is purely explosive deals 100% of an red enemy, 80% of an veteran and 65% of an elite or something. Heck that could make things more interesting for them cluster if each small explostion deals something like 12% of an enemy health so it becomes about either spreading out or trying to hit a closed space so all explosions stacks doing massive damage. Since granades are a constant tool with limited amount that are also limited by spec the ones that deal damage should matter as much as the ones that deal status effect that honestly see more use since blinding an enemy is seem more importantly than dealing bad damage and a bleed.

    ...Which brings me to bleed and few other status effects, well i just think that bleed should scale with the enemy HP and thats it. Blind and confused on the other hadn i think could use small tweaks so they don't feel exactly identical in the sense that it's just CC an enemy, i think blinded should have an enemy accuracy debuff that still lingers a few seconds after blinding an enemy so even after they come back from walking with their hands covering their faces, they would still have an accuracy debuff after resuming to regular behaviour for the next 8s or something. Similarly i think confused enemies instead should attack the nearest thing while confused so they would stagger a bit and be hipfring at that target, is that an explosive barrel, their own turret, another enemy or even if another player if in the wrong way? all for me sound valid, it could be interesting to make an enemy shoot another and then these two keep shooting, of course it wouldn't mean he becomes your ally for the rest of the gunfight, just that if someone is confused and hits someone else, that person will retaliate and when original enemy goes back to normal eh would be retaliating the retaliation.

    Exotics: Honestly think exotics should be more exotic, we should have a crossbow that is considered an exotic sniper and for whatever reason uses sniper ammo when you shoot, there should be big game revolvers that are primary and use rifle ammo, nailguns that count as SMG and use SMG ammo, old WW1 LMGs such as Lewis gun, ARs with magazine taped together that each one has a different ammo bonus kinda like the old "House" SMG had a switch mechanic, make the Sweet dreams swtich between semi auto and pump action like the real Spas-12, you know fun and somewhat crazier stuff for the players but not magical lazer guns, just the right type of weird like the enemy has it and we dont.

    Extended magainzes: Honestly think they should be nerfed into obilivion or removed from the game with very few exceptions, game feels balanced around people using 60 round magazines with lots of crit chance and crit damage hitting around 50% headshots with the rest being either body or misses. That naturally makes every gun feel the same, the tommy gun drum magazine isn't special if you can just slap almost every other gun with that same size and have more modding options, similarly LMGs always felt a bit weird in the sense they are balanced to take more shots to kill but their overall bigger magazine size would cover more than that...if the other guns had natural magazine sizes around 20-30 rounds but that is never the case.

    Specializations: They kinda suck you feel that you grap some minor bonuses and thats it, they are not that grandiose to character customization yet the game treats it as a MMO job that is meant to very different from each other but you can slap the same min maxed AR/Rifle crit build using providence, grupo sombra, cz, fenrir and so on and achieve almost perfect identical results in all of them. They should offer more rewarding and interestings opportunities for the player, i honestly forget what most of the armor kits of each one does and that surivavlist even has a special healing seeker. I know that many people share similar feelings about signature weapons since they ask to be able to hide them in gameplay for being ugly or that they just exist at all since they rarely happen to use. I already made too many threads on this subject that the devs can feel free to go after because there are A LOT and some of them are REALLY LONG so i'm not in the mood to rewrite everything inthere.

    Well that was mostly it, a bunch of comments on random stuff, if you read all this congrats because i certainly wouldn't and it's already 2 AM so i know it's riddled with typos, wrong punctuation or might have some pure nonsense. Anyhow don't wanna talk about PVP or the DZ so gonna end it here (does the suggestion tag makes sense if it's intendeed for the devs like the feedback tag?)

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  • Oatiecrumble
    280 posts

    When it comes to weapons & mods please also take into account that Console/Gamepad is different too P.C/Mouse.

  • xcel30
    Original poster 257 posts

    @oatiecrumble looks like i forgot to mention i wanted to decrease enemy overall health with the extended magazine changes, fair enough point to remind of that when mentioning consoles and controllers, i just think that extended mags increases everyone DPS too much making the devs increase the enemy HP by that much also resulting in a moot point for extended mags but bad for everything else, makes you question if people even use other magazines types in most automatic weapons

  • N3mB0t
    261 posts

    i see you are as bored as we are from all this radio silence and lack of ... EVERYTHING.


    why we do keep playing this game instead of forgetting it even it exists is beyond me...

  • Virtual-Chris
    451 posts

    I don’t have as much experience with the game as you guys, but I see some of these things as well.

    This may be out of place in a looter shooter, but it would be more interesting to me if the weapon stats and talents were at least remotely related to the firearm type and ammo used. And gear talents to the gear. For example, a bleed talent should accompany a hollow point round. An armor buff from an armor piercing round. But that kind of added realism probably makes it difficult to justify skill synergy talents. I haven’t thought it through fully.

    I also think there should be more buffs associated with character development and specialization choice rather than gear. For example, a sharpshooter should have a whole skill tree branch related to headshot and Crit hit damage. Your choice of backpack shouldn’t help your Crit hit chance. 🙂

  • Oatiecrumble
    280 posts

    Specialization Trees in this game are a joke, they are just wasted pixels on the screen IMO, they could of been so much more.

    My idea of a specialization is that you are specializing into something, there is nothing special about them.

    I would of liked to see ALL talents removed from gear and have one tree, the tree is your path to your build and each perk/talent has ranks:

    • Rank 1: Normal
    • Rank 2: Hard
    • Rank 3: Heroic
    • Rank 4: Legendary


    So to unlock lets say: Unbreakable at top tier you would have to do the mission that unlocks that legendary talent (but you would have to unlock the previous ranks first).

    Each mission changes maybe every day or week so that talent is not always in the same mission.

    So instead of targeting just loot you are also targeting your perks/talents for your tree.

    Oh and when i say "Tree" i mean a huge tree with loads of paths to take.

    It would simplify the loot system, providence would always roll red/ wyvern would always roll yellow, gila would always roll blues but the path you take defines what build you really are.

  • xcel30
    Original poster 257 posts

    @virtual-chris I mean there is some of that as the same there isn't, snipers having headshot damage is just the way of the game to represent the image that people have of snipers of being badasses that always hit incredible headshots like in movies or TV series about war, similarly shotguns used to have "stagger" in the first game to represent the hugh knockdown and flips people would when hit again in movies.

    For bleed = hollow points thats the entire point of the Ongoing directive gear set, you could imagine that skills and some talents imply that, many explosives deal bleed as a way to simulate that most of their damage doesn't come from the explosions as much as it comes shrapnel flying at super fast speed hitting people causing internal bleeding, and that goes without saying that we have literal special ammo types boxes spread around that do exactly that, so just imagine that the trauma talent means that you character has some hollow point ammo spread into his ammo reserves that "just so happens" to be spread in such a way that matches the cooldown from the skill assuming constant fire

    In the realms of video games 90% of the time the design or use of an item comes first over it's real life application, as long an egregious awkward example doesn't come out of it most people won't mind, after all we have FAL, Mk.17 and Mk.20 SSR that are all weapons that use the same exact caliber but play different roles (AR, Rifle and MMR respectively), unless they made something weird such as an sterling ww2 SMG suddendly hit harder than most sniper rifles with infinite range it doesn't matter much. That is kinda related a bit to what i talked about making exotics more exotics, since many games say that finding interesting guns is hard but there are a bunch of weird IRL ones that could become exotics, AN-94 is an russian rifle that has ultra fast 2 round burst, LeMat revolver has 9 shots and a underbarrel shotgun and it's a wild west gun and so on.

  • LateNiteDelight
    330 posts

    Making Specializations Special! I think I posted this on the old forum, and I have an even larger overhaul variation..

    spoiler

  • Virtual-Chris
    451 posts

    @xcel30

    I agree there is some element of reality in some of the attributes of the game. For example, the weapon mods are somewhat realistic… a high powered scope giving a buff to head shot damage makes sense and I guess an APTIAL/PEQ offering a bonus to CHC also makes sense as do grips that buff accuracy or stability.

    Where things get too abstract for my liking is a chest piece that improves CHC or CHD. A chest piece should buff armor protection, perhaps affect mobility, and if configured properly, maybe offer a buff to reload speed if it has easily accessible mag pouches.

    I’m sure I could come up with a gear buff system that was both realistic and allowed for a variety of builds. The challenge is trying to support skill based builds. There’s really no real world justification for skill tiers. At least not one that comes to mind naturally. I can see having various levels of gadgets… e.g. your drone might be a more advanced version than mine… but abstracting that to gear brands and attributes just makes no sense. You should have to earn/find/develop a Tier 6 drone. Not just get one by wearing a set of Eclipse gear.

    The root problem is, The Division is just World of Warcraft or Diablo with guns. It has way too much magic to be a shooter game that you can take seriously. Exotics, named items and talents are just magic items really.

    What I want would be a game that has the best of both The Division and Ghost Recon in one… but I’m not sure that’s possible or even makes sense.

  • xcel30
    Original poster 257 posts

    @latenitedelight I have somewhat few memories of that thread, mostly me rambling like i did with this one still think we should be getting way more passive buffs in specializations that are more focused than the ones we have before, cause honestly if slap the same generic AR crit build to gunner, sniper and demo they will almost feel indenticals, and since we lost a bunch of smaller talents from gear 1.0 that were indeed just meh and shouldn't become chest or backpack builds i think specializations is where they should live in

    @Oatiecrumble Have you seen FFX sphere grid system? It's pretty much just a giant board that with all the stats, magic, abilities and special attacks in the game and you move your character according to their "levels" and use the spheres like skill points to unlock new stuff, and it's just ONE giant board for everyone, they just start at different spots, so specializations could be starting points, but if you just invest enough into going into a certain corner nothing stops you from getting some small bonus from other characters, heck FFX you can make your white mage hit harder than your black mage

  • Hunted1x
    6 posts

    I'm hoping that one of the big shifts in the new update is that the specialisations are reworked and become truly important. Imagine demolitionist reworked to be a true dps, survivalist becomes the new support/healer, technician is a true skill build exclusive etc. Think it would make a huge difference to builds and the make up of groups. Definitely change the way everyone played and make for a more interesting experience

  • xcel30
    Original poster 257 posts

    @hunted1x I would just switch around survivalist as the support/debuff causing status effect and getting bonus from them and technician being the support healer, all others are pretty direct traits to regular roles, Demo is AOE damage, Sharpshooter single target nuke DPS, Gunner is sustained DPS, firewall is the tank/ crowd control. Thats why many times i suggested they getting subtrees or subclasses focused a bit on one or the other such as a firewall way more into having a better shield and aggro or more constant use of the flamethrower to constantly harass some enemies as form of crowd control.

  • Hunted1x
    6 posts

    @xcel30 totally was just a rambling example of how I'd like the specialist categories to matter and would be a great change to see people spending more time to look at what they're using and how it effects their setup. Would change the game overnight, sure 90% odd just use one and run with it cause it doesn't have that much impact on playstyle right now

  • HonestlyOK1986
    70 posts

    Now add the lmgs, snipers, shotguns into your thinking along with all skills and talents/attributes.

    Fact is, they've added too many different components into the game to be able to balance them all right.

    The problem they have is all they see as an option to fix things is to nerf items whereas the key would have been to buff others to compete and give the game variety. Yeah it may have taken some time to balance well but as nerfing hasnt worked, go the other way and buff things that dont work currently to the point they do.




  • echolecter
    55 posts

    @honestlyok1986 Anyone that thinks Massive can balance this game probably also believes in fairy tales. They can't and never will, or even get close. You don't need to be a mathematician (or maybe you do) to figure this out. The person that can come up with the formula, were all possible combinations of weapon/gear/attributes/mods/skills equals X is the winner. So any buffing or nerfing of stuff also isn't going to solve the main issue with games like this one. Changes will only replace the current best in slot by another combination of your stuff.

  • LateNiteDelight
    330 posts

    The game is pretty well balanced, for PvE. Especially when you dig into the numbers for each weapon class. Only things out of band are Armor [low], Ravi, Scorpio & Memento [high].

    If you're whining about PvP, I don't know what to tell you - my rule has always been to never play a PvE games PvP, because you'll never have full balance or priority. Also, PvP in TD2 is built around counters, not for toe to toe - the only thing out of balance there are shields and Intimidate [should receive a nerf just like Unbreakable does] - unless you want to consider something like the broken power of skill tier 0/1 items too [on both sides, Shrapnel or Jammer]. If you matrix WD v Armor, you'll actually find the game is symmetrically balanced around DZ encounters before you factor in builds [which is why Armor is weaker than it should be in PvE] - the game within a game is finding builds to eek out an advantage there.

    If it's about being "underpowered", do yourself a favor and listen to some old SOTG - the Devs specifically didn't want you to power fantasy through Heroic & Legendary. It's a purposeful choice to nerf as much as buff to maintain the balance between player and NPC that they aim for - which is pretty well dialed at the moment, imo.

  • xcel30
    Original poster 257 posts

    @latenitedelight We definetly are in a point that most things work fine, there are still some overtuned and below avarage in terms of power, such as double barrel shotgun is just the worse shotgun in the game with no reason to ever use it, since last weapon rebalance other shotguns with more ammo do more damage and have more range, the secondary one is still useful due being a secondary, but the primary full sized one has been nerfed due the weird PVP situation last year and has been pretty much a dead weapon choice, thankfully others like the Police magnum got a buff and are finally relevant.

    I'm the kind of guy that you put an weapon, purposedly make it worse than others and keep it that way you should just straight up remove it from the game instead of leaving things bad on purpose, so just like most of my complaints it's nothing game breaking but the amount of time they were left being bad just creates frustation with time. Also i definetly didn't make this post to be about PVP.

    If i were to expand on other stuff that bothers me there's always Health stat that is pretty useless, some talents that are just bad such as reassigned, how the specializations secondaries weapons are mostly bland and should be mini exotics with unique talents like the firestarter one, feels like the game is solved in terms of builds and we already know whats bad and whats good, mostly wants stuff thats bad to get some use or shine in some way, in older posts of mine i do mention making weird suggestions like a bonus that would convert part of armor into health with a bigger scale for firewall for example making it a weird health tank instead of armor

  • Adrian-11
    558 posts

    @virtual-chris

    I agree with this, mostly.
    The game feels very complicated for a newcomer. Lots of things don't seem to make a lot of sense.
    Unfortunately, is one of those damn if you do, damn if you don't situations. Too much could be a quick turn-off for new or prospective players, too little might shorten "the hold" game has for the "captive" players.
    The secret sauce seems to be some sort of balance between complexity and fresh content... which hard to pinpoint and achieve.

  • LateNiteDelight
    330 posts

    @xcel30 100% agree, but I feel the balance was worse prior, for a long while. TU10 fixed most weapon balance issues, outside outliers like the Double Barrel [think they're still gunshy after the DB Meta prior to Gear 2.0]. I feel like the enemies have been in a good spot as well, outside random spikes in server connection issues since the launcher change.

    Health and Armor have always been low, most noticably since we since we lost Berserk, and I've always felt the Specializations are underwhelming and too generic. Definitely some Talents not worth considering, such as Reassigned, which should give a full mag - which is why I think they should get incorporated into better themed Specializations.

    Really hoping Yannick was hinting at positive upgrades to Gear 2.0 [as long as we don't go back to talent gating].

  • xJdKxZomBiE
    9 posts

    To be honest, I love the suggestions.

    May I make a few more?

    Exotic weapons need removed as a class only item and introduced as a separate tier of weapon to find or craft. My reasoning behind this is that the classes don't really have bonuses that make them useful as a whole, outside of Gunner spec because it actively regenerates ammo for the weapons you are using over time.

    Imagine being able to find different versions of the specialization weapons off heavy elite named enemies? A new minigun, a better flamer, a rocket launcher that doesn't suck....

    Specialization pistols that are actually useful. I play a flamer build a lot, and tbh the shotgun sidearm sucks, because I'd rather use my SMG that increases status duration and damage.

    Non-Green Gear set bonuses are wonky imho. Too many do the same thing in different ways and are not actually unique. This is were Div 1 system excelled with having multiple pieces that had a natural talent associated to them, which Div 2 had before they removed it. Your mask, gloves, kneepads, and holster all had a talent that you were afforded a plethora of assorted options to craft a build out of.

    I have always hated that high rof weapons had lower damage than other platforms that used the EXACT same munition. Explain to my why an AA-12 takes an entire 20 round drum to do the same damage as a 3 rounds from a Spas....In this instance, weapon stats need to focus more on the weapon itselfs handling characteristics and not arbitrary stats. All mods should focus on handling stats, none for CC/CD. A 5.56 does so much damage, and no amount of scopes, or foregrips, or laser sights will affect that, but what they WILL do is make your likeliness of hitting your target better, which increases your lethality.

    What if we added more talent options to weapons themselves in the form of ammo? Find yourself an LMG with armor piercing rounds and you do even more damage to heavy targets/armored elites, but less to unarmored reds and purples because of overpenetration? Imagine finding yourself a shotgun that has dragon breath rounds instead of slugs or buckshot? Or even birdshot, which seems dumb until you realize how useful that would be against enemy drones (+ large % dmg to enemy drones as a native bonus to birdshot). Find a AR platform that has been converted to .300blk, or Grendel, or heck, say a unicorn .50ae.

    To be honest, the possibilities are endless, we just need people on the dev team that think outside the box and realize a little fantasy is pretty nice to add. Covid aside, the Green Poison is a fictional virus, why not go a little nuts with the fantasy, considering the enemy somehow finds a neverending supply of dudes willing to be suicidal sprinters, over grown beef cakes force fed creatine to wield a minigun or lmg or flamer. Hell, our agents are the epitome of human endurance, able to sprint indefinitely while reloading and equipped with enough munitions and ammo to fund a small countries personal war. Hell, I know from experience that just my IBA, kevlar, assault pack, camelbak, m16/203, m9, and 240 rounds of 5.56 made me heavy as all f*** in Iraq, idk how these dudes do it, maybe its super soldier serum.

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