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  • MrBdur
    Original poster 155 posts

    Option Select removal is greatly appreciated. Overall, game feels much healthier.

    That being said, what did you guys do to Orochi and Raider?

    Giving Raider further buffs was necessary with the armor nerf.

    Reverting Raider's armor without further buffs would have also been ok.

    Giving him further buffs AND reverting armor nerfs? Why?

    He's absolutely braindead in duels/brawls now.

    So is Orochi.

    Orochi has 3 options from front dodge now, each of which can cover up the flaws of the others. He has little to zero recovery times anywhere in his kit now.

    Cmon.

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    Contrary to popular belief, Lorem Ipsum is not simply random text. It has roots in a piece of classical Latin literature from 45 BC, making it over 2000 years old. Richard McClintock, a Latin professor at Hampden-Sydney College in Virginia, looked up one of the more obscure Latin words, consectetur, from a Lorem Ipsum passage, and going through the cites of the word in classical literature, discovered the undoubtable source. Lorem Ipsum comes from sections 1.10.32 and 1.10.33 of "de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum" (The Extremes of Good and Evil) by Cicero, written in 45 BC. This book is a treatise on the theory of ethics, very popular during the Renaissance. The first line of Lorem Ipsum, "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet..", comes from a line in section 1.10.32.

    Contrary to popular belief, Lorem Ipsum is not simply random text. It has roots in a piece of classical Latin literature from 45 BC, making it over 2000 years old. Richard McClintock, a Latin professor at Hampden-Sydney College in Virginia, looked up one of the more obscure Latin words, consectetur, from a Lorem Ipsum passage, and going through the cites of the word in classical literature, discovered the undoubtable source. Lorem Ipsum comes from sections 1.10.32 and 1.10.33 of "de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum" (The Extremes of Good and Evil) by Cicero, written in 45 BC. This book is a treatise on the theory of ethics, very popular during the Renaissance. The first line of Lorem Ipsum, "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet..", comes from a line in section 1.10.32.

  • LordSpyro598
    28 posts

    @mrbdur Bring back old orochi Ubisoft!

  • deathtocakl
    1370 posts
    Banned

    Raider is definitely quite strong now. Not strong enough to be nerfed though.

    Orochi is definitely pretty unique and hard to kill. But overall he's still B tier. Not busted at all.

    Also for any and all that want orochi reverted. Nothing was taken away from him except for a pointless light finisher. His hurricane blast was merged with his wind gust.

    If you want him "reverted". Just give yourself the self imposed restriction of not bashing, no recovery cancels, no Zone chain, no front dodge storm rush.
    Enjoy your terrible pre-rework character.

  • LordSpyro598
    28 posts

    @deathtocakl Good idea

  • Csodaszarvas_G
    258 posts

    They both are much more viable now indeed. Raider feels more relentless than he/she ever was and I'm really fond of that. However he/she could still use Enhanced light chain starters IMO, than his/her kit would be complete.

    Orochi is in super-sane mode. I personally don't mind it yet, he/she can be a bit spammy and hard to catch, but if you're ready for his dodge attacks than you're in light parry heaven. My only concern in the moment is that his/her heavy parry max punish (zone + guaranteed light) might be too high now. Not that I'm complaining or anything, as LB I get 25 dmg (if a wall is nearby), I just pointed out that it is higher compared to the majority of the cast.

  • Knight_Raime
    410 posts

    So you should've just been able to stuff his chain zone mixes? Or reaction punish any of his chain heavies if you dodged them?
    The "buffs" he got aside from two were QoL fixes. Tap being a chain starter gives him basic offense. Armor timings give him the ability to actually throw attacks in team fights.
    I really don't see how he's brain dead. You can easily react block everything he can throw and just leave guard up top for soft feints. This forces him to use his UB's more which means raider is forced into making reads just as much as his opponent.

    Orochi has 2 real options for front dodge. Storm rush is always interruptable unless he lands an opening/chain finisher heavy. If you can react block lights from neutral then you can react block SR.
    You can punish his recovery cancel fun a few different ways depending on if he back dodges or side dodges. If he side dodges delaying your DA long enough punishes him from trying to recovery cancel for deflects or punishes. For those heros who do not have the ability to delay their DA or do not have one they can GB his kick whiff even if he attempts to side dodge recovery cancel if you're dodging on his fwd dodge. If he back dodges into riptide or fwd dodges into light GB's won't work. But both of those are reactable and give light parry rewards. Delaying your DA properly also punishes/avoids his chaining on whiff since he has to buffer in order to beat GB attempts.

    If you've the reaction time to react to his fwd dodge any DA that's 533ms or faster will also punish him before he can recovery cancel for a deflect. (window is less forgiving for those who have to wait 300ms into their DA for it to start.) This does leave you open to Orochi reaction punishing your DA if he makes the read to empty fwd dodge. And he can also just make the soft read to fwd light. But in both cases both players are making a read. Orochi cannot even block after a whiffed kick. And he cannot delay his recovery cancel long enough to punish your delayed DA's. He'll get slapped by the attack.

    The only thing "over tuned" about orochi and raider is their damage profiles. Everything else is perfectly fine and people as usual are jumping the gun.

  • MrBdur
    Original poster 155 posts

    Wow. So I'll start by saying there are a lot of assumptions being made about my post here.

    Umm, did I say, at all, that I want Raider and Orochi reverted? No.

    I think maybe they both ended up overtuned, but they both needed updates.

    Raider and Orochi are two of my most played heroes. Orochi was extremely weak for a long time. Rework is great for the most part, just needs to be toned down very slightly.

    Raider's armor could have used more activation time still. Setting it back to where it was once again makes it toxic.

    The idea that he was being interupted in team fights is something any hero without instant HA has to deal with, yes? Why does Raider get a free pass on that note?

    In no way do I want these 2 reverted to pre rework, but they need to tweak the new kits a little.

    Remember folks, I don't judge a hero as too strong because I lost to them a lot. I judge a hero as too strong when winning becomes too easy for me.

    If my "skill" suddenly goes up when playing a certain hero, then it's likely the hero, and not me. Logic, eh?

  • Knight_Raime
    410 posts

    @mrbdur

    >The idea that he was being interupted in team fights is something any hero without instant HA has to deal with, yes? Why does Raider get a free pass on that note?

    Raider's HA isn't instant it's 100ms into his attack. There are other heros who have HA that were not threatened with being interrupted as often as he was. Good example is Warlord.
    The armor timing on TG meant he NEVER could trade in a team fight and always be peeled. But i'm pretty sure i've already been down this road with you before when discussing the armor.
    The devs noted in their own dev comments that they not only got feedback that the armor made him underperform in team fights but also their own data reflected it.


    >If my "skill" suddenly goes up when playing a certain hero, then it's likely the hero, and not me. Logic, eh?

    Or maybe it's because Raider got some significant changes that fundamentally alters how he plays and thus how you have to approach him?
    Nah, lets just assume things have been figured out in totality in a grand total of 2 days.

  • MrBdur
    Original poster 155 posts

    @knight_raime 100ms may as well be instant lol, but you're right, it is not instant. That was my mistake.

    I don't think Raider needs big nerfs or anything, just that dang ol' armor timing. Put it back to feint timing but then speed em up as you suggested previously. That would be cool. Or just add another 100ms to the activation. Or remove soft feint to gb. One of these things alone would be fine. Any combo of these suggestions would result in too heavy of a nerf.

    For Orochi, he was one of my first ever mains. I have over 30 reps on him and haven't played him for a long time cuz he's been so weak. Trust me, I love Orochi being stronger. It's amazing. It's just that they went slightly too far, in my humble opinion.

    I mean, it's fine for the time being, I suppose. I'm enjoying the new Raider and Orochi, myself. Definitely lots of fun playing Orochi again!! Raider is just hilariously powerful but not quite as bad as his time as GOD, so I don't quite feel bad enough to avoid using him. Ahahaha

  • undondory
    612 posts

    @mrbdur HUMBLE?! since when have you EVER been humble!?

    jokes aside that would indeed make it more enjoyable to fight raider.

  • MrBdur
    Original poster 155 posts

    @undondory I was wondering who would catch me on that. Bahahahaha

    I mean, I try to be humble. I know how to be humble. It's just that when it comes time to put it in to action, I end up being obnoxious instead. LOL

    My meds help somewhat, but they don't cure me by any means 🤣

  • undondory
    612 posts

    @mrbdur don't worry I live with someone with ADHD ADD and autism I can tell you mean it.

  • MrBdur
    Original poster 155 posts

    @undondory I greatly appreciate this comment. Thank you.

  • Knight_Raime
    410 posts

    @mrbdur

    If we moved raiders chain heavies/heavy finishers to 700ms we run into a different issue regarding his soft feints. IIRC the only character that has a soft feint on his 700ms chains is centurion and it's just a GB. raider has a GB and a 400ms top light that's enhanced. He'd arguably be more oppressive in that state than he is atm for average players. They could probably make his HA come out 200ms into his heavies. Maybe even 300ms (IIRC that was his old mid chain heavy timing.) But putting it past the feint window would basically kill his trading capabilities which is what his kit is sort of pinned on.

    As I posted in another thread Orochi's fwd mix isn't strong. People just haven't figured out how to handle it yet on a larger scale. Here's the link for it: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/plyz8z/how_to_fully_counter_orochis_kick/

  • IlluminatiEyes
    1392 posts
    Banned

    @knight_raime
    They are both stronger (Raider and Orochi), but as you say, people are not used to them reworked yet.
    I think in a few weeks from now, people will find a way to deal easily with them both.
    Neither of them are S tier.

  • deathtocakl
    1370 posts
    Banned
    @knight_raime
    They are both stronger (Raider and Orochi), but as you say, people are not used to them reworked yet.
    I think in a few weeks from now, people will find a way to deal easily with them both.
    Neither of them are S tier.

    Orochi absolutely is B tier. As how how high or low in that tier, I'll leave up to you.

    Raider is high A tier. In my personal opinion he's actually S Tier in duels.

  • IlluminatiEyes
    1392 posts
    Banned

    @deathtocakl
    You already know that, when i speak about heros, im refering to Team Mods. With overall Feats, Perks, etc, etc... 😄

    I just like the chaos of team fights. I really dont know much about duel tiers.

  • Sanguinius-IX-
    67 posts

    @mrbdur
    The Raider is fine as it is.

    While Orochi, annulment of the orochis dodge on football is excessive, they are already making videos of people who do the right reading but are still punished by Orochi.
    For those who want to see it I leave the link.

  • King_of_Xibalba
    535 posts

    @sanguinius-ix yeh It happened to me also, you can punish him but it is extremely difficult sometimes if the orochi knows what he is doing. Idk overall he feels good is just small things I found IDk, "tweakable"?

  • Knight_Raime
    410 posts

    @sanguinius-ix

    "right read" is a bit subjective since there's multiple options that you can do as a defender against his kick that cover multiple things Orochi can do. However in this case the Raider's problem was timing. If he wanted the DA to punish kick he either had to early dodge (as in dodge on orochi's dodge) or he would've had to delay it past the window of Orochi being able to recovery cancel into a deflect. Instead the raider did it on reaction to the kick which is why he was punished.

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