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  • thebaronofsd
    Original poster 6 posts

    In the past with RS2014 this question was a hard no. The exact why never stated however midi support not being a part of RS2014 seemed a logical hard stop. I get coder time is money and a net new feature is hard to beg for from the top level publisher.

    However, I've read midi playback is part of RockSmith+. This seems to indicate that MIDI is part of the game and if true, then technically the foundation for Drums/keys is there. I recognize that it would take more than just midi to make these features happen but having it is important.

    Look I'm going to subscribe to RS+ either way, this isn't a hostage post, this is however a plea. Drums really have nothing like this game, nor keyboards. There are apps like melodics and others as well as the indie game Phase Shift (now defunct) but none as good as Guitarsmith ... sorry Rocksmith.

    I've seen the arguments from the crowd and in my opinion many of them are just red herrings that IMO can be eliminated if there is a robust mapping system that the individual can configure on their own. If an indie game with 2-3 devs like PhaseShift can manage this I have faith that Rocksmith has the talent to do this too.

    Keep it simple, 5 piece, HH, ride, 3 Cymbal colors. Use the same colors as strings. Even Neil Peart's compositions can be rendered down to a 5 piece with 3 cymbals.

    There is a market for this, Melodics and others prove that. The majority of new drum sets sold are in fact electronic. Acoustic drums have options for adding triggers too. Focus less on the "but what abouts" and more on letting the individual map their setup to a simple 5 piece config.

    I love the strings support, my kid is finally learning to play and its a lot of fun. He also likes drums though, as do I. This game can be the most complete music simulator/learning tool on the market, bar none. It needs drum support though to accomplish that otherwise, it is a great guitar sim, which is fine, but not as awesome.

    Thanks for reading and hopefully your consideration.

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  • pedietz
    70 posts

    @thebaronofsd why not play just drums on RockBand 3 or RockBand 4?

    RockBand 3 lets you use MIDI based drums like IONs.
    RockBand 3 lets you use MIDI based keyboards.

    And the songs are way cheaper on RockBand. .99 each I thought.
    Unless of course you mean that you want to play drums for free as part of your Rocksmith+ subscription?

    I still have my RB3 gear since keyboards did not move to RB4.
    Sounds like Sony is going to pull the plug on the Playstation 3 store soon.
    Buy and install while you can.

    Playing a drum is an on-and-off kinda trigger event


  • thebaronofsd
    Original poster 6 posts

    @pedietz

    Very fair question and I thank you for it. Two main reasons why that is a non starter for me, well, 3.

    1) i'm one of a tiny number of people who actually has the most recent PhaseShift release. Harmonix sued them, they had to pull the game from Steam but I and a few others still can play it. As such, I have all the rockband 3, 4, 2, etc etc songs as well as a bunch of customs by the likes of sodamlazy and some of the others that have put out phenomenal 'real drums' tracks. however, phaseshift is lacking too, which I'll get into later

    2) I don't own a console. Yes, you can play RB3 on PC but

    3) RB3 is 11 years old and frankly, it is just a game. There is no aspect of the game that tries to teach.

    Which is the crux of my ask here. Rocksmith/2014 has always (IMO) tried to strike a balance between teaching and entertaining. From what I've read, this (the teaching) will be expanded upon in RS+. Phaseshift too, is really a game with no real desire to teach.

    If drums and keys were supported in RS+ then ideally that balance between teaching and entertaining comes with it. For instance, I'll focus on drums here as I'm not much of a keys person, with RS+ you could leverage the way chords are displayed to group say a drum fill and label it as triplets or this is an inverted paradiddle, or here is a drag, or etc etc etc. this would massively help learning new songs as while I may have heard the song many times if I haven't taken the time to break down "ok, what is the drummer doing here" my progression through the song slows until such time that I dig in and figure out, ok, thats a group of triplets and a pat boone debbie boone at the end. With a RS+ I believe that learning process could be accelerated, enhanced, and made to be entertaining/enjoyable in ways the other apps/games just can't ever hope to do.

    PhaseShift and the others don't deal with hi-hats well at all. I tried to talk with the phase shift guys and come up with a way to track midi channel 4 so that we could get a better simulation of open vs closed hi-hat but they didn't have time and got sued so ... is what it is. RS+, with a much larger team (and licenses), in theory could create a feature like that.

    In closing, Rocksmith is a significantly better game than any of the others AND it has tools to assist with learning. All this could be brought to drums/keys too allowing them to capture all of the market that these games, melodics, and other tools try to offer but fall short of what Rocksmith does.

  • pedietz
    70 posts

    @thebaronofsd Cool response!

    If a drum is simply an on-off event. aka hit a snare 4 times in 4 seconds. Then it doesn't matter if its soft or if its loud or if its with you hand finger or with a mallet. It doesn't matter if its in the center or if its on the edge. Its literally just a zero or a 1. You can buy triggers that when they feel vibration send a 1-on signal.

    So the only real thing you can "teach" or "learn" is timing skill.

    To hit the snare 4 times at the exact millisecond.
    And RockBand 3/4 did that wonderfully.

    I guess I just don't understand how Rocksmith would be able to see a bunch of notes and figure out tricks to "teach" someone.
    In guitar land you can replace a 4 note E chord with a 2 note E cord or a 1 note E cord.
    In the drum world it's "are you banging something or not"? Aka if you are playing a Rush song and you are converting Neil's 20 drum kit into the 4 drum kit you are playing.... or vice versa.

    If you are doing a fill in, you can hit the drums any way you want. Replace 4 snares with 5 snares? Sure. Replace 4 snares with 1 bass pedal hit. Replace 4 snares with 8 syncopated snare step snare step hihat hihit hihat. It never ever mattered. In Rockband 3/4 if you did a fill-in with 1 note, u would get 1x points. And if you had some ausbergers skills you could do a crazy sounding 32 note fill in and get mega points. But that's about it.
    Not useful but more "fun" kinda aspect.

    Is the game supposed to hear the bass player and just kind of mimic him?

    And don't just say "let the developers figure that out" because to this day I don't think anyone has figured how to score or not score something like that and teach... Drums is mostly about feeling. But in a game of copying songs, its mostly just a timing skills game.

    Or are you wanting some kind of audio spectrum analyzer that say "boy he hit that tambourine in a way that it kinda sounds like a muffled snare?"
    And since the game at the exact second is looking for "play me something creative here with a snare?" that it matches and gets a little bonus for not being a snare but instead a snare-like sound? And if you are a n00b and playing with your heart and hitting crash cymbals instead, the game will say "boy i like that you are playing with your heart but you need to be trying to bang on something more snare like" and flash the screen red.

    See how that's like zero fun?

















  • thebaronofsd
    Original poster 6 posts

    If a drum is simply an on-off event.

    It isn't simple an on/off event. Each midi channel has 128 steps, 0-127. There is plenty of nuance to be had here and plenty to teach. The game teaches scales yes? The game could then teach rudiments too. You're apparently unaware of ghost notes, side stick, rim shots, bow/rim hihat shuffles, etc etc. All these have midi channels or levels within that 0-127 range associated with them. I tend to think you don't know much about drums.

    Drums is mostly about feeling. But in a game of copying songs, its mostly just a timing skills game.

    Music is mostly about feeling, full stop. Learning a song on any instrument is mostly about timing. On guitar or bass, you have to figure out each part and nail the timing. This can be extremely specific for things like tough strumming patterns, chord progressions, etc or it can be like a blink182 song where once you learn the power chord shape for the song, you just learn where to move it back and forth and strum in time. Regardless of the complexity of an individual track, there is learning going on.

    I forgot the most important reason why I want drums and keys in RS+.

    1) I want to play with my kid, in the same game, as a family, learning together. The fact that other games/music apps exist doesn't help me play with him. Further, mom plays keys, would be great to have her participating as well.

  • pedietz
    70 posts

    @thebaronofsd ahh ok. I have a couple of electronic drum sets but they only put out 1's and 0's -- a cheap 2003 Simmons and an Ion Rocker.
    I guess I knew the nice sets had mutiple zones on the cymbals and drum pads.

    The only issue is can a piece of computer software listening and transcribing a song "detect that" ? I bet not. Volume sure.
    Maybe if they had masters for each track -- Rocksmith doesnt use Masters like Rockband did.

    Rocksmith+ is a 1-player only game, so even if they did add drums and keys, everyone would be playing solo.
    And even worse, the game only has 1 profile so they'd be playing as you ruining your personal stats.


  • thebaronofsd
    Original poster 6 posts

    @pedietz

    For a few years now some key patents that Roland had have expired. You now see mesh heads and position detection on much lower end kits and this functionality continues to go down market. Roland and Alesis both have $500 kits that offer functionality formerly only seen on kits in the $1500+ range. Another option though is to use something like a Roland Octapad (SPD-30) as your hi-hat, cymbals, and toms with a snare and kick pedal plugged into the back. A lot of folks use a setup like this for small bar type venues and it works great.

    The only issue is can a piece of computer software listening and transcribing a song "detect that"

    Absolutely, and it is trivial compared to the pitch detection RS already does. In fact, the MIDI standard was written from the beginning specifically with auxiliary devices being triggered by midi events as one of the many things it enabled. Live rock shows use MIDI for a TON of different triggered events to include light show integration and a long list of other things. In the example above with the Octapad, a lot of folks use that setup as a midi trigger using tools like Superior Drummer, Addictive drums, Battery, and other packages to trigger raw uncompressed drum samples live and it works phenomenally.

    Rocksmith+ is a 1-player only game, so even if they did add drums and keys, everyone would be playing solo.
    And even worse, the game only has 1 profile so they'd be playing as you ruining your personal stats.

    I hadn't read this yet and this is a HUGE bummer. If this is true then I'd have to have a subscription for everyone in my house ... now I'm on the fence.

  • pedietz
    70 posts

    @thebaronofsd hope they add multiple user profile support.

    They were going to release the game in Sept/Oct and after so much criticism from the testers, they are adding things.
    A couple people requested multiple profiles.
    A couple people requested multiplayer support. Could 2 people each have an iphone in the same room and not get cross talk?

    RS+ game is kinda diverging from the RS cable and prefers to use your phone for input.

    It seems iphones can detect way better than the cable and it uses ASIO drivers.

    While the kludgy cable is 48000 bits and not ASIO and has latency issues.




  • thebaronofsd
    Original poster 6 posts

    Could 2 people each have an iphone in the same room and not get cross talk?

    Highly unlikely but this is trivial for my Focusrite Scarlett and any other proper audio interface. I'll stick with that since it will be officially supported.

    No multi-profile/player may be a deal breaker for me.

  • Skippern666
    72 posts

    @pedietz multiplayer would require that at least one use RS cable or ASIO interface, preferably everybody.

    What I would like to see is challenge mode, where I could challenge and compare results with friended players over internet (not simultaneous play, since that is a quite hard technical challenge).

  • randomas
    5 posts

    @pedietz I actually developped a linux midi driver/converter for the rb3 pro GH drumkits. All the pads have velocity, the only binary trigger is the kick on the RB kits, and yes writing that code is darn trivial it's a midi message.

    You can find the project here if you like:

    https://github.com/rbdrum2midi/rbdrum2midi: (https://github.com/rbdrum2midi/rbdrum2midi)

    Damn I'm gutted that I missed the phaseshift release, it was the only softtware I could use the rb3 squier on.


  • Rockera05
    3 posts

    I would also like them to add instruments and multiplayer as in rock band 3. I had rock band 3, and when 4 came out nobody was playing multiplayer anymore, besides the guitar track is less intuitive than rocksmith's, that's why I play rocksmith and I like rs more. That midi guitar also had a lot of note detection errors. Hopefully they find a way to make it multiplayer, even if it's just adding the voice, or that I can do like in rock band and guitar hero, that you could calibrate the sound of the TV with the press of the instruments. I would not mind if they were midi as long as they can all be played together at the same time and without hearing the live sound of the instrument.

  • avia006
    1 posts

    I thought about it too. And i think, that this will be awesome thing)

  • pedietz
    70 posts

    @rockera05 the old game had multiplayer local so it's possible. Maybe not online multiplayer.

    But here's the problem... that would mean 2 or more people would be playing on the same account, and ubisoft seems to want you to pay for each account -- prolly for stupid music licensing agreements.

    How many people would pay $288 a year for 2 people in the same household? So once or twice a year the wife can sing while you play bass?


  • Rockera05
    3 posts

    From what I'm seeing, it looks like rocksmith + will be for acoustic guitar. they'll add a bunch of songs with AI-generated chords and that's it. They will also stop selling real tone cable and will force us to use our mobile phones or our own interfaces, something with which I do not agree. I hope I am wrong.

    I've been waiting for a game as a rock band with real instruments for years and my grandchildren will enjoy it because I won't be able to do it. I am very sad.
     rocksmith + is a disappointment to me as it was in its rock band 4 day.

  • pedietz
    70 posts

    @rockera05 How are they going to sell this game for consoles though? They are going to have to have a cable? I guess they wouldnt "have" to. Some of those oddball playstation trivia games make you run a side-app on your phone.

    So they are going to make you play through your amp then beam it to your iphone then to the cloud then to your screen/audio system. Still amazed at how that can be as fast as it is.

    I guess if there's a silver lining it, the RS cable was old USB2 crummy 44k 16-bit technology.
    And us moving to a Scarlett interface means we can be 24-bit 96k ASIO low-latency mode.

    And wouldnt it be nice if Ubisoft partnered with Harmonix for their voice highway technology?
    Singing was always awesome in RB3/RB4.



  • dataway
    61 posts

    Anyone know if RS is going to put out any kind of list of compatible input cables (for pc)? I've still got two old working RS cables ... more than willing to buy a later, more advanced input device ... just not sure what to buy. Would be nice to have something simple plug and play, USB powered, no additional boxes or controls .... basically just like the RS cable except better.

  • kimharry007
    2 posts
    This post is deleted!
  • kimharry007
    2 posts

    This is a really cool and fantastic feature in this latest version.

    Regards: Dragon City

  • thebaronofsd
    Original poster 6 posts

    Apparently they're hiring someone to add piano support.

    https://theriffrepeater.com/ubisoft-job-posting-confirms-piano-content-rocksmith-plus-subscription/: (https://theriffrepeater.com/ubisoft-job-posting-confirms-piano-content-rocksmith-plus-subscription)

    Which suggests midi support has already been added which would mean adding drum support just got significantly simpler.

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