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  • AngriusMaximus
    Original poster 41 posts

    I've been running the following build for general purpose gameplay and would like to get some advice / feedback on it along with some proposed changes.

    None of the online posts (Reddit/Ubi-Forums/etc) seem to have any suitable comparisons for me to use, as they all seem to run either all-Red DPS Crit builds focused on pure damage output with 3x Providence or PvP focused hybrid builds.

    I play exclusively PvE (mainly solo) and my current build works well enough on Challenging but but suffers a little on Heroic, so I was wondering if some changes could be made while still retaining survivability.

    Note that my SHD watch perks are maxed out (SHD 4100+) and the Critical Hit Chance and Damage (CHC / CHD) buffs from it are already included in my listed calculations, while all my Gear stats are maxed out.

    All my guns have Damage to Targets Out of Cover (DtTOoC) in their stats due to its higher general utility compared to Damage to Health / Armor (DTH / DTA).

    My guns also use mainly Accuracy and Stability mods in order to maximise the ability to sustain shots on target.

    Please also note that I already have a pure Skill build (Turret / Drone) and Tank Build so please refrain from suggesting those.

    Also, please note that:
    > Red Core = Weapon Damage
    > Yellow Core = Skill Tier
    > Blue Core = Armor
    _________________________________


    BASIC INFO

    Class: Gunner (10% Ammo Regen / Armor on Kill; i.e AoK / Weapon Handling when immobile)

    Chest Talent: Unbreakable (95% armor refill on breakage every 60 sec)

    Backpack Talent: Composure (+15% Total Weapon Damage when firing from cover)

    Gun 1: Pestilence LMG (Used for extra damage over time from its talent and the large magazine size)

    Gun 2: Usually AR, may be Rifle (Talent = Ranger / Preservation / Optimist depending on situation)

    Skill 1: Healer Drone (Reviver Hive cooldown takes too long)

    Skill 2: Assault Turret

    Cores Mix: 5 Red / 1 Yellow

    _________________________________


    GEAR BRANDS:

    1x Coyote's Mask (Red Core)

    1x Ceska Vyroba (Red Core) - Note: 1x stat = 8% Weapon Handling

    1x Grupo Sombra (Red Core) - Note: 1x stat = 8% Weapon Handling

    1x Belstone Armory (Yellow Core)

    1x Walker Harris (Red Core)

    1x Fox's Prayer (Red Core)

    Crit Stats without weapon mods (Includes Brand + SHD Watch bonuses): 50% CHC / 144% CHD

    _________________________________


    GENERAL PLAYSTYLE

    > General exploration until random / scripted enemy encounters.
    > Staying in cover at Mid / Long range and hammering enemies with the Pestilence LMG while the AR / Rifle assist at Closer / Longer Ranges as needed.
    > SMG / Shotgun (Scorpio) useage as needed for some CQC situations.

    _________________________________


    PERSONAL COMMENTS:

    This build tends give me sufficient raw firepower and versatility to hit targets at most ranges hard (5x Red Core + Walker Harris additive 5% to all guns + Composure Talent multiplicative bonus).

    Concerning the 50% CHC, I compensate with a 5% CHC gun mod where possible while Coyote's Mask has the CHC/CHD distance-based bonus.

    The 16% Weapon Handling also helps with reload time and ability to keep shots on target at longer ranges.

    The 1x Yellow Core allows my Assault Turret to function as a distraction sentry while still damaging targets without going down too fast (1x Yellow Core = +25% Skill Dmg / 50% Skill HP).

    The Healer Drone also helps to keep my armor up when paired with Belstone's 1% Armor Regen, the Gunner Class' 10% AoK and Unbreakable's 2nd chance armor refill, allowing me to sustain damage output for a longer time and the chance to reposition if flanked / rushed.

    I've tried the standard DPS builds and they just seem too high risk / specialised for me, while the Hybrid DPS builds seem too dependant on getting up close with SMGs.

    Overall I prefer a slower and steady approach to hitting targets, using cover and terrain advantages where I can to best synergise with my build.

    HOWEVER, as I mentioned earlier, while my current build works fine for Challenging, it suffers more in Heroic due to the high bullet-spongieness of enemies, especially at closer ranges if they swarm.

    _________________________________


    REQUEST FOR FEEDBACK / ADVICE:


    Should I swap out my 1x Walker Harris holster for a Makeshift armor piece to get 12% more CHD from the additional gear mod slot (CHD Total: 144+12= 156%)?

    Just how much does the Walker Harris 5% damage to all guns compare with the potential 12% CHD from the Makeshift armor piece?

    Also, should I then swap out my Fox's Prayer for a Makeshift armor piece as well for the extra CHD as well given that all my guns already have DtTOoC (CHD Total w/above: 144+12+12 = 168%)?

    Similarly, how does Fox's Prayer 8% DtTOoc compare with the additional potential CHD as well?

    Lastly, are there any other potential changes I could make to the build without sacrificing too much versatility and survivability?

    Any useful feedback / advice would be most welcome, and I am also willing to entertain questions concering my existing build.

    My thanks to you all.

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    Contrary to popular belief, Lorem Ipsum is not simply random text. It has roots in a piece of classical Latin literature from 45 BC, making it over 2000 years old. Richard McClintock, a Latin professor at Hampden-Sydney College in Virginia, looked up one of the more obscure Latin words, consectetur, from a Lorem Ipsum passage, and going through the cites of the word in classical literature, discovered the undoubtable source. Lorem Ipsum comes from sections 1.10.32 and 1.10.33 of "de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum" (The Extremes of Good and Evil) by Cicero, written in 45 BC. This book is a treatise on the theory of ethics, very popular during the Renaissance. The first line of Lorem Ipsum, "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet..", comes from a line in section 1.10.32.

    Contrary to popular belief, Lorem Ipsum is not simply random text. It has roots in a piece of classical Latin literature from 45 BC, making it over 2000 years old. Richard McClintock, a Latin professor at Hampden-Sydney College in Virginia, looked up one of the more obscure Latin words, consectetur, from a Lorem Ipsum passage, and going through the cites of the word in classical literature, discovered the undoubtable source. Lorem Ipsum comes from sections 1.10.32 and 1.10.33 of "de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum" (The Extremes of Good and Evil) by Cicero, written in 45 BC. This book is a treatise on the theory of ethics, very popular during the Renaissance. The first line of Lorem Ipsum, "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet..", comes from a line in section 1.10.32.

  • LateNiteDelight
    1040 posts

    I would not swap any pieces for Improvised. Those only make sense for PfE or a highly focused Crit Damage or Skill build, imo. What I would consider, is adding Contractor's gloves to boost your Pestilence further.

    The only other consideration, would be swapping Coyote's for Memento, so you don't need that Yellow Belstone. That's more of a personal choice, but I find the extra cores useful - it would also free you to swap the Belstone back to Armor for more Regen or over to Weapon Damage for more punch.

  • III_Hammer_III
    113 posts

    I am reading your post and trying to understand what is it that you really are asking for...

    You don't seem to want to run all-red crits or hybrid builds, even though the build you describe under basic info is a hybrid (hybrid doesn't have to be an even distribution of red/yellow/blue)

    Same goes for survivability: do you mean taking a lot of damage, or just surviving encounters? You can definitely survive encounters by doling out damage faster than the mobs (all red).

    I will tell you that, if you are 4100+ SHD and have a proper turret/drone build: I don't know what you mean by "suffer a little"; sure you may die here and there (mostly because you miss a step in the dance or the mobs trigger some random act), but you should not struggle...

    But, just looking at the build you describe, if I must use that build, IMO:

    Too much weapon handling.
    There really is no reason to have weapon handing in your gear stats unless you want to use a particular gun that's not very stable. Leave the stabily/accuracy to the gun itself and gun mods. If weapon handling is a must (and I guess it is since your main weapon is Pestilence) , I'd use Braced on the chest piece instead of Unbreakable, which I only use when doing hardcore mode.

    Fox's Prayer.
    You are wasting a stat if you are not using a rifle as main weapon. If your main is an LMG, you are better off with Petrov. The 8% armor damage may look tempting, but I rather have 10%/12%CHD/6%CHC than the 8% AD if I am not using a rifle (or at any time, really)

    Bellstone
    You are wasting a stat. 1% armor regen is nothing. You are better off with Gila Guard and armor as main stat. I'd rather use Preservation on my weapon.

    Walker Harris
    If you must use the healer drone, you may want to consider swapping for Alps Summit for the 20% repair skill.

    Healer drone.
    I rather use a damage dealer that aggroes mobs. I believe not getting hit by mobs is better than healing damage mobs inflict on me; and the attack drone not only aggroes, but makes mobs turn away from me, exposing weak points.

  • Aced_100
    210 posts

    My advice is to also swap the mask for Memento, keep unbreakable on the chest and try and make it another Belstone for the 10% armor on kill, it sure helps to keep you alive as when playing Heroic if you die you go back to the beginning.

  • Noxious81
    1043 posts
    (...)
    Too much weapon handling.
    There really is no reason to have weapon handing in your gear stats unless you want to use a particular gun that's not very stable. (...)


    I guess the two Weapon Handling attributes were chosen due to the fact that CHC is already maxed out (which technically is 50% in this build because of Coyote's Mask) and that the other attribute is already CHD. So Weapon Handling probably is the best "red" choice here. But you could indeed try going for Armor Regeneration here, because two maxed out Armor Regen attributes will result in a higher regeneration per second than 1% Armor Regen from a Belstone Armory piece as long as you are not running at least one blue core attribute.

    Also: Keep in mind that Weapon Handling is not only about Stability. It also boosts Accuracy and Reload Speed, what makes it incredibly useful!

    (...) I'd use Braced on the chest piece instead of Unbreakable, which I only use when doing hardcore mode.


    Agreed. Braced is in fact a very nice DPS-talent. Thanks to the aforementioned benefits of Weapon Handling, this talent really can make a difference. And: you can craft a Petrov vest with the perfect version of Braced!

    (...) Fox's Prayer.
    You are wasting a stat if you are not using a rifle as main weapon. If your main is an LMG, you are better off with Petrov. The 8% armor damage may look tempting, but I rather have 10%/12%CHD/6%CHC than the 8% AD if I am not using a rifle (or at any time, really)


    Just looking at the maths, this is a wrong advice. Because the Weapon Damage bonus from Brands like Petrov are additive bonuses and thus are applied only to the base damage of a weapon. Damage to Armor and Damage to Targets out of Cover are multiplicative bonuses and thus are applied to the total Weapon Damage (which already includes any other bonuses).

    So having an 8% multiplicative bonus is a better choice than having a 10% additive bonus.

    And btw:
    The Fox's Prayer kneepads grant 8% Damage to Targets out of Cover, not Damage to Armor.

    But speaking of Damage to Armor: the named Petrov Contractor's Gloves come with an 8% bonus to DtA... you might wanna consider incorporating them for a bit more damage against all those pesky elite and veteran enemies.

  • Adrian-11
    897 posts

    My "universal" DPS/survivor build:

    For open world activities (mostly CPs)

    • Spec Gunner
    • 1 Coyote's Mask
    • 1 Ceska CHD+CHC
    • 1 Grupo CHD+CHC
    • 1 Fenris CHD+CHC
    • 2 Belstone CHD+ArmorRegen
    • All gear mods are CHD
    • Talents Obliterate + Composure (or Vigilance)
    • AR M4 (or C7) with Ranger, all mods CHD except ACOG scope (long range)
    • SMG MPX with Optimist, all mods CHC (short range)
    • Reviver hive and shield (or assault drone to pull some aggro, and switch the AR to InSync)


    For missions, some small changes

    • Talents Obliterate + Unstoppable Force
    • AR HoneyB with Killer or Famas with Optimist
    • SMG MPX with Close & Personal
    • same note as above if you want to use the assault drone


    I don't have it handy, but I recall that CHC is ~45% and CHD ~175%. Coyote's and weapon's mods compensate the CHC (depending on the situation) and boosting the CHD by quite a bit.
    When all bonuses are active, it's ramping from 400k up to 1M per hit (probably around 25% of the hits are around 1M).
    I don't really like to play shield on offensive (much better use of it with a HF+SMG+STG build), but it's useful when you find yourself cornered.

  • III_Hammer_III
    113 posts

    @noxious81

    I don't use Coyote's mask but, technically, when using the mask, CHC is situational. I prefer constant rates.

    I know what weapon handling does, thank you very much.

    As for Fox's Prayer, it's not an either/or situation: if you are using Fox's Prayer and not using a rifle, you are wasting a stat, period. That stat is doing nothing. It doesn't matter that this other stat is allegedly better, what matters is that this one stat that could be in use is not in use at all.

  • AngriusMaximus
    Original poster 41 posts

    @noxious81 @iii_hammer_iii

    My thanks to the both of you for the advice on this. Yes I will admit my build is somewhat of a hybrid, i.e. not fully specced for damage output, but to answer the questions as follows:

    ... do you mean taking a lot of damage, or just surviving encounters?...

    I actually mean both, in the sense that encounter survival tends to be an issue especially in the map events (Hostage Rescue, Supply Drop, etc) with the enemy spawn locations, terrain cover distribution and how they swarm me, especially if I have no viable fallback position when they flank/charge. This is especially the case with the BTSU, and compounded with their high damage output it tends to end me VERY fast even when I do manage to drop some incoming attackers. It's only during missions that the cover tends to be better, with less exposed angles for the enemy to hit me from, and even then their increased damage output and high levels of armor / damage resistance make it very dicey to pop my head up for a shot, even when swapped to SMGs or ARs for CQC work.


    I will tell you that, if you are 4100+ SHD and have a proper turret/drone build: I don't know what you mean by "suffer a little"; sure you may die here and there (mostly because you miss a step in the dance or the mobs trigger some random act), but you should not struggle...

    As mentioned in my original post, I stated that I already have a full skill Turret/Drone build, which I often use for Heroic missions and certain Bounties. However, it tends to be too clunky to use in open world activities due to the terrain nature (often lack of solid defensive cover, i.e. too many exposed angles, and places to deploy the turret effectively) and tendency of enemies to flank/charge, further compounded with the randomness of enemy patrols who may spawn in at times on my flanks or rear. Also, while the Turret/Drone combo is effective, the longer TTK means that the aforementioned enemy flankers/patrols often manage to force me out of cover, which given my lack of armor and weapon damage with 6 Yellow cores, is a very bad situation..

    In the case of my 5Red/1Yellow build being discussed, it just does not provide a fast enough TTK or enough armor healing to safely offset the AI's lethality. I also did try a full Red build but found it even squishier due to a lack of armor regen and heavy reliance on burst DPS, which worked fine for random patrol encounters with weaker enemies (4-5 Red/Purple) but got stonewalled when doing open world activities with larger groups (6-8) containing even 1 Elite due to either lack of weapon handling causing multiple missed shots, or the lowered CHC / CHD rendering TTKs too long for me to engage them openly without significant risks.

    Healer drone.

    Due to being a solo player, with my listed build having 5 Red cores, I've found that the Striker Drone is non-viable even as bait on Heroic unless it has at least 4 Yellow cores, due to its low HP and its long cooldown. It usually gets shot apart within 2-3 seconds on Heroic and has minimal damage output. The Assault Turret with even 1 Yellow Core lasts a little longer (5-10sec), does more base damage, and I can grab it to reposition it or to reduce cooldown if changing my positions, or even heal it to an extent with the Healer Drone. The Healer also does help to keep my armor up, which does allow me to sustain combat longer than if I didn't have it. I had even tried the Reviver Hive, but the ultra long cooldown made it less than useful for me.


    Too much weapon handling.

    As stated, I tend to use Pestilence or another LMG as a primary due to the higher damage, mag size and inbuilt DtTOoC with the 3rd stat as DTA, which allows me to better mitigate the peskier enemy resistances (i.e. their armor bars and how they tend to be out of cover often flanking or charging me). The lower ROF also tends to pair well with Gunner's Ammo regen speed to prevent me running out of ammo during extended firefights like CP4s or even the aforementioned open world activities w/patrols, which given the tankiness of the AI on heroic was a huge issue I had with assault rifles, especially the higher ROF ones like the M4 and FAMAS.

    The Weapon Handling helps to reduce the overall reload times of my guns and ensure higher hit ratios especially at the ranges I tend to engage at (mid-long), which does tend to be an issue due to the general instability of LMGs compared to other guns. Furthermore, I use a controller even on PC as I literally cannot play properly with a Mouse & Keyboard, so the enhanced weapon handling does help. In this instance however, do you feel that replacing 1 Weapon Handling stat with CHD would significantly improve my TTK?


    I'd use Braced on the chest piece...

    I do agree that it is possible to use Braced instead of Unbreakable (I do have a spare chestpiece with the talent) and have done so in past group Heroic missions. However, it tended to work better in teamplay due to how the AI attention is split between multiple players, while in my usual solo play, all incoming fire is focused only on me.

    Also, despite Braced freeing up the weapon handling stats for more CHC/CHD, I've found through my gameplay that due to the AIs high damage output and constant flanking/rushing on Heroic, I often have my armor destroyed via incoming fire from exposed angles with insufficient time to use an Armor Kit, which is why Unbreakable's 2nd chance armor is at times a godsend to buy me some time to counter them or move. It's also why I use a Healer Drone + Belstone, to increase my overall armor regen without compromising my CHC/CHD stats too much.


    Fox's Prayer / Contractor's Gloves

    I originally included Fox's Prayer as a means to boost my Rifle damage due to my mid-long range play style (my Class weapon points are mainly in LMGs and ARs) while still getting a boost to damage output for all gun types via its 8% DtTOoC. However, as mentioned in my first post, given that all my weapons already have DtTOoC in as part of their 3 stats, is there really a substantial benefit to it compared to extra 12% CHD?

    The same issue of the 12% CHD comparison also applies to the 6% DTA from Contractor's Gloves, as using it means further reducing my CHC / CHD, which in the case of CHC likely puts it at 44%, meaning that Coyote's Mask can't really compensate for it at short/mid ranges, while a CHD hit drops my existing CHD to 132% instead, which on Heroic doesn't do enough damage.

    Also, using Contractor's Gloves would force me to replace my 1x Walker Harris which provides the 5% damage bonus to ALL my guns, not just specifically my LMG, which given how I use a slight variant of this current build (-2x CHC mods, +2x CHD) even for CQC SMG/Shotgun play in some missions does make the gloves seem less attractive, due to how AI tend to back-pedal into the open when I close the distance, which means the 8% DtTOoC from Fox's comes into play.


    Bellstone
    You are wasting a stat. 1% armor regen is nothing.

    I did use 1x Gila Guard prior to Belstone coming out, but due to the high enemy damage output and resistance on Heroic, I found it better to actually have passive armor regen instead of slightly more armor (5% more armor isn't that much in the face of 4 enemies shooting at you) as it allows me to constantly have at least some armor after ducking into cover even when my Healer Drone is not on me (healing turret / been shot or EMP'd). As mentioned in my first post, I wanted to have some level of survivability in the build and Belstone provided better performance than Gila Guard based on my gameplay experience. Also, when paired with my Healer drone I've found it allowed for much faster armor restoration than a 1x armor regen stat.

    The Preservation gun talent is already more or less my default on my secondary AR / SMG on Challenging, but the due to it having a "On-Kill" requirement, means that it wasn't as effective on Heroic due to the tougher AI increasing TTK and their increased damage output far outstripping my ability to effectively heal from the talent.

    ...two maxed out Armor Regen attributes will result in a higher regeneration per second...

    On this note, I did try using the armor regen stats but it basically crippled either my CHC, CHD or weapon handling and even a maximum of 2x armor regen stats replacing 1 red stat each wasn't enough to offset the slower TTK and inaccuracy at range, which was why I eventually used Belstone.





  • AngriusMaximus
    Original poster 41 posts

    @adrian-11

    Hi, and my thanks for your build idea.

    It does look viable if i make some changes as I run LMGs as my primary while my playstyle tends to focus on mid-long range combat, which the MPX doesn't do too well at. Also, while I do run a Ranger M4, I play with a controller which means I generally need more weapon handling mods / gear stats to manage automatic fire. Also, in my own use, I found the Reviver Hive cooldown to be too long for me to handle, and the Assault Drone to be too fragile with long cooldown unless I have at least 4 Yellow cores.

    Regardless, my thanks again for the suggestion as I never considered using a 2nd Belstone instead of Fox's Prayer.

    If possible though, do you mind explaining how you compensate for the removal of Fox's DtTOoC and the lack of Weapon Handling in your build at longer ranges? Or is it meant purely for close-range assault?

  • Adrian-11
    897 posts

    @angriusmaximus

    If you like LMGs, then you should consider Contractor's Gloves in your build.

    I can't compensate for Fox's DTOC, simply there is no other alternative (goes without saying, the 3rd attribute on all my ARs is DTOC). But I use Fenris that gives me 10% for AR damage, and I use AR as the main. Basically, I trade the 8% DTOC for 10% AR damage from Fenris + one attribute slot that can be used for CHD or CHC (your choice). All in all, I think it's a good trade.
    The other part that helps is the Coyote's, which gives me 25% CHC, or 10% CHC + 10% CHD in most scenarios, using my AR for long to medium range.
    MPX is truly secondary, I use it only when I get flanked or I have surprises with NPCs popping too close to me. It's maxed on CHC mods, and Coyote gives me the 25% CHD for close range.
    I play on PC with a mouse (a pretty good one, I might say), so handling is not a problem with C7, M4, or Honey Badger. Always helps to add some stability or accuracy or handling, but that means you give up on something else. With a controller, totally understandable. The other option would be to use Steady Handed talent, which improves all aspects of handling as you hit the NPCs. I'm still using it from time to time, it makes your high ROF guns laser-like.

    The build is not for close range, especially if you use the 1st variant with Composure and C7 Ranger. The 2nd variant for missions is a medium-range assault, and that can be used for close-range if you go Famas(CHC mods)+InSync+Shield.

    I use two Belstone pieces because they give me INSTANT 10% armor on kill, while I still get the Regen running all the time in the background.

    Speaking of LMGs... I have a Stoner with Strained that I use in a similar build, only diff I changed the Fenris piece for Contractor's Gloves... That thing is the death of mobs and Marauders.




  • III_Hammer_III
    113 posts

    @angriusmaximus

    I can only go by what you say, so I may be very wrong here, but, overall, I think the problem is playing style, combined with builds that are not efficient and an insistence of using Pestilence.

    You said you have a "proper turret/drone build" ( I hope is not Rigger) but I don't know what that build is. If you have a "proper turret/drone build", you shouldn't really be struggling in the heroic open world unless the build is not-so-proper and/or your play style doesn't agree with the build. Sure, some times something will go wrong and you'll get killed, but more often than not, you should be clearing heroic content, even open world, with a "proper turret/drone build".

    I don't have that many builds... I have 3 skill builds (one turret/drone, one healer, one status effects), 2 DPS (Hunter's, Ongoing Directive) and 1 armor (Foundry w/shield, not optimized yet). Only 2 builds have combined stats: the turret/drone that has a red because I am using the rocker launcher, and the shield. The others are all red or all yellow. I do insist on using the flame thrower as my specialization simply because the low profile when sitting on the backpack. I don't use Coyote's either. I know this handicaps me a bit, but, meh...

    If you are preoccupied with armor regen and at the same time doling out damage, 3-piece Hunter's Fury gives you 20% armor and 100% health on kill, and using Preservation on your weapon gives you 10% (20% on head shot kills) armor in 5 secs. The 4 piece HF's buffs not only amplify your damage, but disorients enemies near you (if you have chest/backpack), which means they don't shoot at you. You'll have to use an SMG for max benefit for the 2 piece 15% SMG damage bonus (even better if you use Emeline's with Perfect Preservation, large mag) . Added benefit of using SMGs is the 21% CHC. Of course, you have to play at closer ranges.

    Speaking of mag size... I don't really pay too much attention to it. First and foremost is TTK, then reload time.



  • Noxious81
    1043 posts
    (...) I don't use Coyote's mask (...),


    But the OP does, so I was just referring to the CHC of his specific build. Because generally...

    (...) I prefer constant rates.


    ... I also prefer constant rates. I just like to know that I always have 55% or 60% CHC in every situation. And since the Coyote's Mask bonuses are group-wide, often someone else will grant the bonus for the group anyway.

    I know what weapon handling does, thank you very much.


    You're welcome. Since you were just referring to Stability I wanted to make clear what Weapon Handling actually does in case anyone else less experienced should stumble across this thread.

    (...) if you are using Fox's Prayer and not using a rifle, you are wasting a stat, period. That stat is doing nothing. It doesn't matter that this other stat is allegedly better, what matters is that this one stat that could be in use is not in use at all.


    Yes, you are wasting the Brand bonus. Correct. But the 8% multiplicative damage bonus is much stronger than using the right Brand bonus (for example Fenris when using an AR) instead. It's all in the math of additive vs. multiplicative bonuses.

    An example:
    A Carbine 7 has a base damage of 47,012. When looking only at the gear and only at the core attributes, the total weapon damage of that Carbine in a maxed out all red build would be calculated like this:

    47,012 base damage * (15% + 15% + 15% + 15% + 15% + 15% for six red core attributes) = 89,323 total weapon damage

    If you now add 10% AR damage to that equation for using Fenris kneepads, it would change like that:

    47,012 base damage * (15% + 15% + 15% + 15% + 15% + 15% for six red core attributes +10% from one Fenris piece) = 94,042 total weapon damage

    But if we instead only use our red core attributes from the first equation, "waste" the Fenris bonus by swapping the Fenris kneepads for the Fox's Prayer... we come to this equation:

    [ 47,012 base damage * (15% + 15% + 15% + 15% + 15% + 15% for six red core attributes) ] * 8% DtTooC = 96,469 total weapon damage


    As you can see, the total weapon damage is higher when using the Fox's Prayer kneepads despite the wasted Brand bonus. That's because the 8% DtTooC bonus is multiplicative – thus when talking about kneepads, it is better to use the Fox's Prayer kneepads instead of kneepads even from the Brand that fits your primary weapon. (Of course it is still a good idea to generally use one item of a Brand fitting the main weapon, but with the really powerful bonuses of the Fox's Prayer kneepads and the Contractor's Gloves, these two named items should always we taken into consideration when creating a DPS-build.)

    Which eventually makes the advice to use Petrov kneepads instead of the Fox's Prayer kneepads ("You are wasting a stat if you are not using a rifle as main weapon. If your main is an LMG, you are better off with Petrov.") a wrong advice.

  • Adrian-11
    897 posts

    @noxious81

    How do I know or figure out which are additive or multiplicative? Thanks

  • III_Hammer_III
    113 posts

    @noxious81

    It is a wasted stat that can be used to synergize with other things, no matter how you slice it,.

    In your example, you use an AR. How about you use a rifle, instead of an AR? What's the math then?

    And, why is it that Fox's Prayer is a must?

  • LateNiteDelight
    1040 posts

    @iii_hammer_iii A lot of times, when not using a Rifle, W&H or [Brand] make more sense than Fox's. Fox's is just easy, as nobody updated their anchors post W&H, so the script is still Fox's+Contractor's+Providence, even though it's no longer technically "Max DPS".

    What you seem to be missing from the OP, is that they want more builds for Heroic, in this case a DPS build. Also, Pestilence is awesome, no reason to knock it - I can cruise through Heroic with one [though I have a PC advantage, so landing shots is easier].

    In my opinion, a Pestilence focused build with some survivability is best as: Ceska, Grupo, Memento, Contractor's and [2] W&H, with Unbreakable. If they need more survives, add Belstone for a W&H. I see no issue popping Fox's in if they lean on a Rifle regularly or have trouble with rushers.

    Also, 1% aRegen is definitely not a waste - it allows you to quickly top up the few bullets you take. Doubly so with the Pesti, as it keeps damaging the enemy even if you have to hunker down a few seconds.

  • III_Hammer_III
    113 posts

    @latenitedelight
    What do you mean by "nobody updated their anchors"? That may be your script, and the script people got from some youtuber... definitely not mine. Never has.

    I don't get from the OP that the poster wants a "DPS build", especially with the title that reads "general purpose build" . I even said so in my OP, that I wasn't sure what he was asking for... especially with the addition of a healing drone and armor regen stats.

    I am not knocking Pestilence, but I don't think it is "awesome". But you use what you want to use. It is your game to play. I do that with the flamethrower, as i said, just because it has the smallest profile of all of the specialization weapons.

    And speaking of DPS, DPS isn't exclusively an all red build doing damage with a weapon, just like healing doesn't require yellow stats.

    In any case, many ways to skin this cat... you guys figure it out.

  • LateNiteDelight
    1040 posts

    @iii_hammer_iii 🙄

    I was letting you know why many folks still push that narrative. You and I are in agreement on Fox's not being "mandatory"..

    Though not on the Pestilence. Full stacks has it >20% stronger than your average LMG. The talent is one of the strongest in the game, and makes all content easier. Me personally, I'm an EB R&G player - but I can appreciate a strong weapon like Pestilence or Scorpio.

    As for all around, hence my suggestion for Memento. It's the first piece of any gun first Hybrid build. If they truly wanted a Hybrid build they need Memento, Technician and Spotter, with one Belstone.

  • Gooberfishface
    3 posts

    @angriusmaximus
    build for your mood and to have options---if you want survivability I recommend belstone/foudry mix for the armor and regen I spice it up with
    punch drunk mask with 20 percent headshot and use the named kneepads for the 1 percent armor regens

    Shield and a stinger hive which is amazing when you get jumped or rushed---dark winter smg or FAMAS AR burnout and
    the scorpio shotgun--works well but a little slow in TTK in missions but great for when everyone else is going down--add a little hazpro or protection from elites mods or incoming repairs

    For DPS I run glass cannon fenris or prov glass cannon versions a lot. AR's the FAL for range and heavies and dogggos at over 1 mil per hit or the pestilence (especially for rouge agent encounters at range---scorp is good too when they close in). I sometimes run overwatch to give all members 12 percent especially with a strong team for legendary or oblit if I feel like running forward a little.

    Get up to around 200 CHD and keep an m1a as your second in all cases---burst down the ADDs with your primary and crack open the heavies/Elites with the miA. up close the scorp stops everything in its tracks by freezing them up with shock and shot gun stagger. There is a big difference in surviving once you get 200 or above with CHD and 50 percent or so CHC with coyotes

    I use the named gloves for the rifle boost cause when the big boys come out it is the mia clearing the room

    I have an Epress skill damage bill ---vanilla version per you tube, an Eclipse build with status effects and duration, and a pestilnce max damage for the 1.4 mil ticks. Also negotiators with scorpio and vile mask or with pestilence

    Most of the time though it is the 3 piece prov --the gift w perfect vig, perfect glass, prov kneepads, grupo holster, coyotes, and the OA named gloves

    These are the builds I love---the hybrids now can often beat my damage but Id say 50.50 or 60/40 in their favor more so if they use that artillery turret--yikes. my two most often used are the armor regen and the dps builds. I like damage but I have walked thru hell with the armor regen! 🙂

  • Imagine_Brata
    628 posts

    @adrian-11 In addition to Fox prayer / Contractors gloves. So is Walker Harris Armor Damage / Health Damage multiplicative.

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