Shaolin Buff Suggestion0 Likes/6 Replies/147 Views
It has been a while since I have posted, but recently started playing shaolin again after putting him down for a bit and he is just so bad now. He feels slow and sluggish and has literally 0 chain pressure, but that all said he doesn't need a rework. He doesn't need a rework ubi, he needs a buff, just to update his kit a bit. Here is what I believe he needs, some of this is taken from what others have said and a little of it is mine, I just wanted to put this to paper, so to speak.
Opener lights now are enhanced.
Shaolin's opener lights are highly telegraphed, despite being standard speed, they are extremely easy to block. Furthermore, a backstep light tech doesn't work in most cases due to shaolin not moving backwards very far, and striking with a bo staff gives him a lot of range, hitting the opponent anyway. Making his opener lights enhanced would allow him to enter Qi stance easier, and initiate chains without having to play defensively the whole game. (and as a note this would be fine with the triple lights on side, because they would only be guaranteed on a hit, so it would take the skill of the shaolin not to throw an obvious second light, much like a warden missing their first light on side.)
Opener/Chain heavies are faster.
I am not gonna say how much faster, as I don't have the capability to test that, but they need to be a bit quicker, both openers and chain heavies are slow enough to reaction parry and they have no pressure on the opponent to do so outside of low skill. The only useful heavy shaolin typically lands is the finisher, because it isn't expected. Making his heavies like 100 ms faster, maybe more would help with his pressure without being oppressive.
Side Dodge Heavies
Now can chain into Qi stance and initiate chains.
Probably the most requested change I hear from shaolin players. His dodge heavies are quite useful in ganks and in 4v4 modes as a whole, but they are hard stops right now with now way to chain out. They also are the only base kit move that cannot go into Qi stance, making them a weird flow killing point of the character. Allowing chaining out of them, AT LEAST into Qi stance would make shaolin flow so much better offensively. Plus they could just use the animation for the side heavy flow into Qi stance with little tweaking and it would look fine.
Crushing counter lights now initiate chains on successful hits.
Another major issue with shaolin is the only forms of pressure they have exist in their Qi stance, and those forms of pressure are defensive, single mindgames that also are hard stops leaving you at most in frame advantage. Allowing the lights to chain out on successful hits would mean they would still have to land to keep flow going, maintaining the skill required to use them and not turning them into an avenue for pseudo-light spam. As for whether or not they should also be able to chain into Qi stance again, I am unsure and will cover why later in my maybe section.
Unblockable heavy from top and heavy following sun kick now initiate chains.
Both of these moves I also believe should initiate chains, but at all times, even if they miss (obviously not if they are parried). They are fairly slow unblockables and the one after sun kick isn't even guaranteed, but they both can be feinted. Allowing these to initiate chains would allow shaolin to continue pressure after the punish and increase the flow of the kit. Again, I am unsure if they should also chain into Qi stance.
There are a lot of things that could be done with shaolin's kit that I am unsure of. The ones listed above I believe should be absolutely added and if it was just those, I certainly would be happy. No real need to slap an undodgeable/bash mixup into shaolin and turn his kit into every other new character. Listed below are possible changes he could have, but I am unsure as to how they would affect the character as a whole if at all.
Sweep attack following sun kick now is hyper armored.
Not guaranteed, the sweep is designed to catch opponents who aren't paying attention off guard and to be used in anti-ganking situations by swapping targets. At least that is what I have grown to see the move used for. Giving it hyper armor would allow it to be swapped a lot more and function better in ganks, but I don't know if it would even help at all.
Adding a mid chain-bash to his core moves/giving his chain heavies some sort of property like undodgeable.
I said it wasn't necessary but it still would help. I personally believe shaolin does NOT need this change, but if they would want to add more pressure to his heavies by making them undodgeable or something, that COULD be a way of doing it.
Adding a forward-dodge bash to core kit.
They could just recycle the sprint-kick animation for this and it would be fine. Giving him a way to open up blocking players isn't too necessary, but would be somewhat welcome as a change. I don't know how I feel about it though.
Allowing Qi stance attacks that chain to also chain into Qi stance.
I didn't put this in my original suggestion because I don't know what kind of things that could open up on the kit. Basically allowing the attacks I suggested that chain to also chain into Qi stance if you held them down again for more control of flow on the kit. I could see so much going wrong here, how would this work with how Qi stance is inputted in game? Would this open the doors for spam? There are just too many questions for it and I think he could survive without it.
If you read this far, thank you for your time. Shaolin is great fun and I would love to see him updated to a state of usability without becoming another Raider/Orochi fiasco of rocketing him well beyond the capabilities of the current roster. It is my belief the few changes I suggested that were necessary would honestly be enough for the character and would make him usable but still leave in that skill requirement of the character and maintain their identity. I maintain the belief he does not need a rework, just a buff pass to make their kit more usable. Let me know what you think, and I hope your day goes well.
HeroOfBretagard 41 posts
@p0wn3rki11 They just need to make it so he can chain Qi stance attacks with each other. Like doing a base dodge attack, holding the trigger down and then being able to go into qi stance. Stuff like that. He also needs to have enough recovery after his sun kick to be able to counter guarbreak after a missed kick since it happens almost very time I attempt to throw it.
deathtocakl 1370 posts
@p0wn3rki11 his heavies are a pretty universal speed among most of the games cast. They don't need to be sped up.
His qi stance bash needs less recovery. It's a free gb on dodge right now.
Needs either medium hitstun on opener/chain lights or faster link to qi stance/stance attacks. A lot of his options are stuffed by a light after a light.
Side qi stance lights need to be sped up to the speed of top. Remove stun from top light.
MCBooma16 44 posts
Besides just adding better ways to flow, such as gaining the ability to enter Qi stance from a dodge attack or successful Qi stance attack, I think there are other important technical matters that people tend to forget about when discussing a Shaolin buff/rework.
Let me explain:
Obviously his Sun Kick recovery is terrible, but so are most all of his recoveries.
His zone would be great if it didn't put him into absolute terrible frame disadvantage. Being able to flow to Qi stance from a zone would be good, too. Less stam cost for zone would be good.
His dodge attack isn't just an end to his flow but the recovery also sucks on that, too. If players want to choose NOT to enter Qi stance or continue chains due to lack of stamina, recovery ought to be better so he isn't so vulnerable to attacks or GBs.
For some reason his deflect only does 20dmg. Guess what? It also costs 20 stamina. It needs to be 24 dmg and 12 stam like every other standardized deflect.
"But it chains to Qi stance and other attacks!" Nothing after a deflect is guaranteed, and other characters have the same flow after deflects.
His deflect has special properties: It's armored and he can hit multiple people around him. However, the hitbox needs to be improved. It needs to be as effective as reworked Conqueror's deflect/fullblock during testing grounds.
Lotus Leap (Qi stance top UB heavy).
This move is a mess for many reasons. It can't really catch early dodges, it's really slow, not armored, and even if you feint to GB to catch a parry attempt the GB bounces off if they parry on light or heavy timing. The time it takes for Shaolin to feint the attack and GB is too long and the attack does not work as a mixup.
Lotus Leap needs to be sped up slightly, needs a faster and better feint-to-GB transition, needs HA in the later frames so it can't be interrupted with a light on reaction, and needs to track early dodges. If it could flow to chained lights and heavies or to other Qi stance attacks that would be good.
Stam consumption is too high. It needs to be lowered across the board.
ALL his neutral lights need to be standardized at 12dmg, that way he can actually use his side lights as viable openers instead of relying on 2 taps, and even 2 taps is 10dmg...
His side light damage should be 12-2-3. Being able to start basic chains without the limitations of low damage can be detrimental, especially in group fights, while also being able to utilize his 3 point strike pin tool.
As for the sweep, people want it sped up but I think it needs to be slowed down and have fantastic tracking for early dodges instead.
You can create a mixup with a kick to light, kick to UB(feint to GB option) or kick to slower sweep for people who just want to get away from orange in teamfights and dodge early. It should have a wider knock-back distance for ledging.
"But people already aren't afraid of the UB after the kick, they'll always wait for the sweep."
If Shaolin ends up getting better flow and options AFTER landing Qi stance attacks, people will become more afraid of orange. The psychological effect of knowing what a character is capable of if you don't do anything will eventually catch up with you and you'll be forced to make another decision. Pair that with better stamina and better recoveries, and I'm sure UB pressure will become more scary. If the Sweep can catch dodges it would be a good mixup, because the top UB after a kick is moderately fast and deals 30dmg.
This mixup would be more similar to Cent or Warden with their variable-timed bashes, except Shaolin will have a fast top UB and a slower Sweep for the same type of 50/50 type pressure.
Flying Monkey kick (Sprint attack kick) needs to flow fast to a light attack. You get a guaranteed light after that kick, but the timing is finicky and it flows horribly.
This is strange because his sprint attack flows really, really nicely to his forward-dodge heavy.
That's about it for the technicalities.
@deathtocakl I honestly thought his heavies were not standard speed, they look so slow. Must be that, like the rest of his moves, they are super telegraphed. Also I did not even consider his recoveries needing buff, but yeah everything recovery wise is pretty bad.
@mcbooma16 These are some really good ideas. I agree with pretty much everything you say here, even your damage change suggestion for Death Point Strike is really good.
I had no idea what to do to sweep but making it into a mixup with his unblockable is actually kinda cool and really interesting, and in that case it might also be worth it to slap hyper armor on it so you cannot get smacked out of it, especially in team fights.