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  • AG-Prime
    Original poster 8 posts

    To help build on the new map that will drop in Y7 and make it easier for devs to meet the huge demand for new maps, this post contains ideas for new maps with a range of destructible environments.

    For the below I've tried to include locations where it would make sense for R6 terrorists to place a bomb, and thus keeping in line with the game. So if you like what you see below give this post a like and/or comment, so the devs know to take notes of the list below.

    *7-star hotel
    *Shopping centre (this can include access to staff-only areas/rooms too)
    *Prominent government building
    *National hydroelectric dam (incl. areas with machinery, internal offices, tourist gift shops, restaurants, etc.) 
    *Iconic private school (e.g. Eaton College in the UK)

    Thanks in advance

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    Contrary to popular belief, Lorem Ipsum is not simply random text. It has roots in a piece of classical Latin literature from 45 BC, making it over 2000 years old. Richard McClintock, a Latin professor at Hampden-Sydney College in Virginia, looked up one of the more obscure Latin words, consectetur, from a Lorem Ipsum passage, and going through the cites of the word in classical literature, discovered the undoubtable source. Lorem Ipsum comes from sections 1.10.32 and 1.10.33 of "de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum" (The Extremes of Good and Evil) by Cicero, written in 45 BC. This book is a treatise on the theory of ethics, very popular during the Renaissance. The first line of Lorem Ipsum, "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet..", comes from a line in section 1.10.32.

  • Slyrr7
    132 posts

    @ag-prime

    Sounds neat, but you're fighting a powerful headwind. Siege is now mostly a "Pro" game, made for professional online matches and e-sporting, not for, say, fun - or for "customers". And pro players HATE destructible environments because it makes matches unpredictable. They love being able to categorize, spreadsheet, and micro-analyze every facet of a map so as to make every match predictable, homogenous, and ultimately - boring.

    And you're not going to get that with any of the locations you've proposed. Why do you think they hate Yacht so much? And Plane, and BartlettU? Those are 'real world' locations, where pro league strategy doesn't work. All the maps that they've reworked have essentially been to sanitize/purge the original maps, replacing real world with pro-league-e-sport friendly sandboxes where everything follows a neatly pigeonholed pattern of statistical flat lines. That's just the way they like it.

    Maybe they'd do more real world maps for the "arcade" modes, which they claim they'll be adding. I hope so. We shall see. Not everybody is enthralled with Ranked/Pro League/E-sport playing style. Many find it tedious, predictable and dull because codifies 'predictability' by removing the one critical thing that a game is supposed to have - fun.

  • AG-Prime
    Original poster 8 posts

    @slyrr7

    It's interesting to read that pro players aim for predictable maps, having heard non-pro but R6 loyalists say the uniformity is pushing them away from Siege. The thing that keeps getting drilled into me by content creators who seem to have been around to see the game grow, is that the destructible environments are what makes Siege standout from other FPSs.

    That's interesting to read, I thought they avoided those maps because of complaints regarding them being claimed to be spawn peek heavens. That's a shame if that's the case and my heart goes out to characters like Oryx xD. I understand pixel peeking for instance can be a challenge to deal with and I get how formulas for success are always great, but there must be a way to ensure neither team gains an unfair advantage.

    Watching players skillfully handle and exploit dynamically changing situations is how viral video clips are made in my opinion. The alternative seems to be pro-players only facing predictable scenarios, then at some point that surely means it will take less time for the best of them to no longer feel challenged by the game and ultimately quitting.

    I'll see what happens, the Y7 roadmap seems to indicate the devs may be moving in the directions of addressing key concerns I see being talked about (cheating, maps, unique operators), so hopefully within that they can find some type of balance to preserve that fun element.

  • Slyrr7
    132 posts

    @ag-prime I keep thinking back even further to games like Team Fortress. In the original TFC game, they had destructible sections that the Demoman class could blow open, and provide the teams with new avenues of attack. Usually, it was just 1 or 2 small sections in a map that were set up to blow one opening. And some people seemed to even complain about THAT. Because in TF2, they removed the Demoman's DetPack ability, and removed all destructible sections from all maps. Just so there could never be any 'unexpected' strategies.

    And Siege seems to be leaning that way as well. Sure you can blow out an occasional wall or window. But hard core players have disliked destructible walls in general, because they want 'reliable' defense strategies and say it's unfair if the attackers can attack from every angle. And you can see their point in some regards - if the defense has no areas that can be reliably defended, then how can they win? Especially when the attackers are stuffed with hard breachers, soft breachers, and other means to knock down every obstacle.

    Me, I like an unpredictable match. I'd be fine if EVERY wall and ceiling could be destroyed. I've asked for the old debris, smoke, and clutter protocols to come back, because obscured visuals make for a realistic firefight. If they bring all of that into one of the 'arcade' modes, I'm there. Provided they can keep out all the cheaters and the trolls.

  • Lie-nus
    137 posts

    @ag-prime Casual maps are disliked because they are predictable in some form or another. But yes, that's generally because of spawn peeks, cramped design*, not utilizing distruction enough, or 1 dimensional design. Sometimes all at once like Plane.

    Slyrr7 either doesn't know what he is talking about, doesn't care, or (sometimes) contradicts his own logic any time he chips in, and I'm surprised anyone takes him seriously at all.

    He wants unpredictable maps but doesn't know the fundamentals or the player dynamics nowadays (he hasn't played in over 2 years to his own admission btw) on how to achieve that. Destructible everything just leads to chaos and means that attackers can abuse angles that they really should not be able to. Old Favela and the Grand Larceny event are prime example of how and why that type of map design doesn't work out.

    *cramped design means there are only a set of roaming options, which + the small map design allows the attack to gain map control super easy, bottling up defenders into the obj allowing for an elimination victory

  • AG-Prime
    Original poster 8 posts

    @slyrr7 It's eye-opening to hear about Team Fortress going through the same thing for 1 or 2 small sections. It's a shame as I'm like you in that I'm happy to adapt to unpredictable situations, simply for the resulting mental challenge that drives in-the-moment decisions and continuous self-improvement.

    Yeah, as many good defensive strats are ultimately built on limiting the number of angles you're exposed to I do get what they're saying from some viewpoints. Although on balance this could be offset by how defenders seem to be the favourites to win on most maps, I'm sure the next time I don't win a 1 v 4 clutch there'll be a brief moment where I'll be singing a different tune 😆 .

  • AG-Prime
    Original poster 8 posts

    @lie-nus Yeah at some point a line needs to be drawn just like there are boundaries in the real world, for instance, marble floors and stone walls used to prevent too many angles, while key alternatives to exposed doorways prevent it from going too far in the other direction.

    Yeah Plane for instance like you say is much easier to bottle in defenders than say it is on Consulate. What you say also gives some context as to why I've heard about so many reworks happening in the past, as ultimately if you're prevented from roaming beyond an otherwise vulnerable bomb site then yeah the map 100% becomes too attacker heavy.

  • Slyrr7
    132 posts

    I've freely admitted that I haven't played since late 2020. But that in no way disqualifies the years in which I previously played. I had regular experience playing Siege from year 1 all the way to year 5, so I know exactly what it was about the game that I found enjoyable, and what I found to be lacking.

    Plus, I was only opining that the map suggestions the OP asked for would be great in the upcoming Arcade modes, which people like Lie may never use. Lie seems to be one of the Ranked/Pro/Esporting types who enjoys that style of play. He may feel slighted and defensive when people (like me) say his style isn't fun. But that would mean he's getting his dander up over nothing, because there's no reason why the arcade modes should affect him or other players who share his mindset.

    Why some people think that Siege has to be a "zero-sum" game is bewildering. As if the developers devoting some time to mollifying the original customer base is in some way robbing and harming newer customers. There's no reason we couldn't all have what we want. And the Arcade modes could prove it. But - it's a coin toss at this point. Who knows what UBI will actually put in those arcade modes? It sounds like even they haven't made up their minds yet. Maybe they've already got some maps like what the OP is hoping for in mind already. Maybe they don't. They may never do anything to woo back the original customer base by restoring the original maps, debris, lighting, etc. In the which case, players like Lie would never have to worry about encountering (or worse, being put on the same team) with players like me.

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