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  • As1r0nimo
    Original poster 354 posts

    Hello there.
    I just want to start a topic about upcoming pulse meta. Imho, from the looks of it, it should be already nerfed.
    How i came up to it:
    1) So, we are getting perfect spotter (20%) and Flatline (15-20%), which will give us 44% in total. Plus New gear set, but we will leave it as it is.
    2) Specialisations revamp will allow us to use laser pointer in any spec.

    In other words, we will have an almost free source of 44% damage boost. Without any drawbacks at all. 100% uptime.
    What alternatives we have?
    1) GC. Obviously. But, it's 30% boost and 60% incoming (perfect version). Pairing it with, let's say, Ignite. Burning target's will recieve 56% more damage, not 100% uptime and 60% incoming shtshow.
    2) Obliterate. 25% Total weapon damage (not x1.25). Crits, goes off pretty quickly. It's OK talent, but still nothing to Pulse blast.
    3) Everything else is harder to proc, or gives you less damage (15% TWD) with piu-piu proc.

    My suggestion is, to avoid a big boomstick like Classic m1a (still broken sht), decrease both Spotter and Flatline to 10% boost (15% perfect version). In this case, we will recieve a lesser damage boost than in GC way, but without drawbacks. Plus, with the gear set it will be still efficient.

    For whiners. No, buffing everything else won't work. It will be just another disaster.

    UPD:
    Just for clarity, let's see what every other talent gives us. I will look at those, which adds weapons damage and works on almost everything.
    1) Close & Personal. 30% weapon damage (pff) at 7 meters. It should be buffed actually. At leasy, make it 12 meters.
    2) Ignite, Sadist, Eyless - +20% (25% perfect) amplify. Ok, let's go with these one.
    3) Ranger. 2% per 5 meters. Most of the time it's like 20-30 meters, so it's 8-12% amplify. Meh. Every 4 meter's would feet better (perfect 2.5% every 4 meters).
    4) Optimist. 3% every 10% missing mag. Base damage, so still meh. At least amplify to make it worth.
    5) In sync. 30% (if proced) weapon damage. Good.

    And here we go with Flatline. 20% (let's go with the perfect version). The only competitors are Ignite (++). Which is 5% more. But, lesser amount of uptime. Especially Eyeless.

    As for Spotter against everything else. So it's 20%, constant, coz easy to apply.
    1) GC - 25-30% outgoing and 50-60% incoming.
    2) Obliterate. 25% (ramping up), lasts 5 seconds.
    3) Spark. 15% TWD, which is bad in comparison, btw. At 20% would be good (since it's TWD). To be good against Obliterate (since it's almost 100% uptime, thx to the drone).
    What we loose, if we use Spotter+Flatline.
    Assuming, it goes against GC+Ignite(++). 44% Amplify against 67.5%.
    So, what we have to do to gain both bonuses. For Pulse blast - shoot in the head (Gear set) or -5% Crit chance (Tec laser). Or someone else should pulse instead of us.
    GC+Ignite(++) combo - You need to make the target burn (some Outcasts and Cleaners weak points, or skills), Bleed (Rikers weak points and, mostly, OD+skills) and Blind (flashbang+some enviromental things and skills). Not an easy task. Plus +60% incoming damage.

    I don't really know. We need deep testing with the New gear set first.



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  • Noxious81
    1007 posts

    Well, at least Perfect Flatline "only" offers 20% additional damage, while for example Perfect Sadist or Perfectly Ignited grant a bonus of 25%. So the Flatline actually is weaker compared to similar talents – concerning numbers. (Although it does apply Pulse after 2 kills – the other perfect talents apply "their" Status Effect after 3 kills.)

    But I do agree that it is way easier to pulse a target (new Gear Set and stuff coming up, regular pulse skill, laser pointer etc.) than to apply Bleed or Burn. This will always require actually hitting a target with a skill (sticky, chem launcher, stinger hive) or getting at least close to it (Ridgeway's Pride). But applying Pulse with a laser point from any distance or with a new Gear Set or safely from cover with the scanner pulse poses no risks but let's you instantly gain a pretty nice damage boost.

    So I too think that some of the synergies between all the cool new pulse-involving gear and talents should be taken into account before actually releasing the new update.

  • xcel30
    832 posts

    I'm going on a limb and say pulse will already get hard nerfed in the PVP ultra fast and that gear set will get reduced bonus when in DZ, since i don't play legendary that often don't enemies also get increased pulse resistance the stronger they are?

    Problem is that those become OP if stacked all together in a build, they don't looks that great if you mix and match everything with other builds, so if they nerf spotter and flatline too much then i think it will all become useless individually and just limite then to "either use everything in this one build or never use them at all"

  • LateNiteDelight
    1040 posts

    I think they should leave Spotter alone, it's been a great talent, doesn't need a nerf at all.

    The problem is potentially Flatline. Is it additive or multiplicative?

    Though you'd be surprised at how many guns can't take the Linked Laser attachment - which is most of the high DPS AR/SMG [Vector .45 being the exemption] - plus all the Exotics.

    Also, I've never tested 90% Pulse Resistance against the laser, but against a normal pulse you pop for maybe a second and then disappear again. So maybe it works the same way with the laser? Not sure there. Or as I noted, put Pulse Resistance as the first Brand Bonus on the new gearset instead of rehashing 5% Total Armor - then you just need (3)Yaahl or System Corruption + (1) New Brand to mitigate a Pulse build completely.

  • As1r0nimo
    Original poster 354 posts

    @latenitedelight I tested it. There is sort of DMR for it, like 3 seconds. So - popUP for 2 seconds, than not working for another 2-3. Something like that.
    As for Spotter/Flatline. Spotter could stay, but Flatline is definately out of bonds.

  • DutchLMB4ever
    415 posts

    Nerfing intimidate because it was 35% damage, with you taking a lot of/all the risk because you had to be close up and therefore in dangerous situations all the time.

    But then create something that hits even harder (44% apparently) while you sit in the back/mid range, Pulsing or even only aiming (Technician laser)
    Risking basically nothing and gain everything.

    Makes a lot of sense indeed...........

    And the people that wanted intimidate nerfed are now defending the pulse because they have a build for it.
    Alrighty then...

  • xcel30
    832 posts

    @dutchlmb4ever Well intimidate was a single talent, this is multiple stacked together, because wasn't the issue of using Intimidate + shield + In sync or Lady death to stack even more?

  • CategoryTheory
    137 posts

    @Noxious81

    Well, at least Perfect Flatline "only" offers 20% additional damage, while for example Perfect Sadist or Perfectly Ignited grant a bonus of 25%. So the Flatline actually is weaker compared to similar talents


    Perfect Flatline is amplified damage, so it's a separate multiplier from everything else. (That's why As1r0nimo wrote that 20% amplified damage from P.Spotter combined with 20% from P.Flatline gives 44% damage buff.) Perfect Sadist gives +25% weapon damage, which is added to all the other weapon damage (it's not a separate multiplier), making it significantly less powerful.

    As an example, in an all red build it's quite easy to achieve +75% weapon damage (6 red cores and the weapon) and another expected 75% from crits (say, 50% CHC × 150% crit damage) for a total of 250% (of the base damage) expected weapon damage. Adding another 25% weapon damage to that gives you 275 / 250 = 10% more overall damage. Using P.Flatline gives 250 * 1.2 = 300; 300/250 = 20% more overall damage. In this case 20% amplified damage is worth exactly double 25% weapon damage.

    applying Pulse with a laser point from any distance


    It doesn't work at any distance. I seem to recall that it started to get unreliable after 30 or 40 meters, and somewhere around 50 m it stopped working completely. Someone else and I worked out all the details and posted them, but that was in the old forums and so Ubisoft, in its infinite wisdom, has probably deleted all that now.

    That said, yeah, applying Pulse with the Technician Laser Pointer is not exactly difficult in most circumstances.

    @LateNiteDelight

    The problem is potentially Flatline. Is it additive or multiplicative?


    The patch notes say, "Talent Perfect Flatline: Amplifies weapon damage by 20% to pulsed enemies." So multiplicative, per above.

    Though you'd be surprised at how many guns can't take the Linked Laser attachment - which is most of the high DPS AR/SMG [Vector .45 being the exemption] - plus all the Exotics.


    Well I wouldn't be because I used to use Spotter a lot and so had to deal with this. It's not quite as bad as you make out: as well as all the Vector SB .45 ACP, the MP5 ST, MP5-N, AUG A3 Para XS and the UMP-45 all have long underbarrel rails. All but the UMP-45 fall into the 690-760 kDPS range that might be considered "high DPS." (The total range of SMG kDPS is 612-759, excepting the ridiculous Vectors: SBR .45 at 808 and Tactical SBR 9mm at 846.) But yeah, you'll still encounter plenty of annoyances, such as the AR Test Subject (Perfectly In Sync) having a short rail.

    @xcel30

    Well intimidate was a single talent, this is multiple stacked together


    In practice Intimidate needs multiple talent slots because it needs bonus armour to proc. The most common way to proc it is with the Adreneline Rush talent in the backpack slot, which is then using a space that the pulse build user would probably be using for +15% TWD from Composure or even +25% TWD from Vigilance.

  • As1r0nimo
    Original poster 354 posts

    @categorytheory with the pulse and new set Concussion will be even better, imho. The same as Vigilance, but requires only headshots.

    Imho, Bighorn will be stupidly strong, due to focus on headshots. And you don't even need Tec laser, since new set will constantly procing it

  • N3mB0t
    984 posts

    @as1r0nimo

    ive been using unstopable force lately instead of vigilance , and ohhh boy its so much better , 15 seconds is plenty of time to get a kill and maintain the buff , concussion is also good but the duration of the 10% buff makes it so you are almost always on 15 % only and the duration to keep it up is only ten seconds.

  • xcel30
    832 posts

    @categorytheory Fair point since i just default about thinking intimidate + adrenaline rush together that i just kinda filtered that in my head, but i do stand still by my point that for the pulse build it's mentioned an specific talent for a new weapons while intimidate was already strong before even adding weapon talents to it.

    Who knows maybe System corruption might become more popular as it also gives extra damage based on how much bonus armor you have + some other weapon talents might keep intimidate as a very strong build. I mean this is work in progress but i wouldn't want something out of the gate gutted purely due PVP, i don't see a problem with nerfing the set and talent values in DZ, but not right out of the game in PVE

  • DutchLMB4ever
    415 posts

    @xcel30 oke, but intimidate needs adrenaline rush or any other bag talent with bonus armor
    Losing vigilance.

    This would be
    Spotter 15% or 20% with perfect spotter
    The gun talent 20% (25% on perfect?)
    Composure 15% or even Vigilance 25%
    + 4 piece of that pulse build (don't know what that does)
    Technician pointer (basically no need for the pulse skill) (so revive hive and decoy)
    And again you sit at a safe distance. (No punishment)

    Thats why there should be a big bonus if you are close-up and in dangerous situations all the time.
    That style of gameplay is actually already a punishment on its own.

    Now you get wrecked and disoriented by shield break before your bonus is maxed.


    In-sync is ridiculous in any build That one should be nerfed (deleted), especially the perfect version.
    Talking about no punishment (devs)

  • CategoryTheory
    137 posts

    @DutchLMB4ever

    In-sync is ridiculous in any build That one should be nerfed (deleted), especially the perfect version.

    It's not quite as bad as it sounds; In Sync adds to Weapon Damage and Skill Damage, rather than giving a separate multiplier like Total Weapon Damage.

    In a typical high-weapon-damage build the +30% from In Sync actually adds less than 15% to the damage you do when it's not proc'd. It basically makes up for replacing a couple of red cores with skill cores. But then again, you're now getting noticeably more powerful skills than you'd have otherwise if you're using attack skills. My main high-crit "red" build is actually exactly this: 4 red, 2 yellow and Striker Drone plus Assault Turret. Though for me the biggest benefit is the skills attracting aggro, since I often play solo.

  • As1r0nimo
    Original poster 354 posts

    I've updated the post with more talents to compare them.

  • xcel30
    832 posts

    @dutchlmb4ever Yeah i later made a post admitting that i kinda just missed talking about the need of adrenaline rush. Anyhow for context the new gear set related to pulse:

    • Heartbreaker — Gear Set:*
      • 2 set: +15% Assault Rifle DMG & +15% LMG DMG
      • 3 set: +15% Weapon Handling
      • 4 set: Heartstopper
      • Headshots apply pulse 5s.
      • Weapon hits on pulsed enemies add and refreshes a stack of +1% bonus armor for and +1% damage to pulsed enemies for 5s. Max stack is 50.
      • 4+ Chest: Max stack is now 100.
      • 4+ Backpack: Stacks now supply +2% bonus armor


    Things to consider here, this set does not mention if uses red cores (if it was listed in the notes feel free to correct me) and if the talent amplified damage or not (personally dont think it is), if it's fully amplified then i agree it's too much and kinda replaces striker so numbers need changing. To keep with the striker comparison this requires the target to be pulsed and to do that you can either use a skill or headshot a target, i think this is another interesting point to discuss on how it will work against heavies and machine that have armor over their heads or no heads at all making player rely on the skill to deal extra damage against those targets. So i think this set is meant to a weaker version of striker but enable more agressive "tanking" to remind people of classified striker healing (deal damage to tank damage)

    This set does gives bonus armor so one could very well stack with intimidate + savage wolverine for Perfect Close & Personal (35% amplified), if someone really wants to double down on how close they want to the enemy while having and stupid amount of bonus armor on top of using a shield or go with the new Spotter + Flatline for a total 40% amplified. Note i am not mentioning backpacks here because the set can already give bonus armor so you are not forced into adrenaline rush backpack.

    One thing i should mention is that System corruption did also get this bonus a while ago:

    • Increases total weapon damage by 1% per 5% bonus armor gained, up to 20%


    While i know the discussion is NOT about intimidate vs new gear set, i think it's fair discussion to have since the nerf came because intimidate was part of PVE and PVP meta according to the devs

  • LateNiteDelight
    1040 posts

    @n3mb0t Vigilance is only good if you want to start with a bang, you get the full force on the easier enemies. Makes most sense to proc Headhunter at higher difficulty levels. I guess if you don't mind waiting in cover for the cooldown a lot, or using a decoy, or rolling car door - but I'm not a fan of those play styles. In a group it can be ok if others are consistently taking the bullets while you hang back picking.

    Unstoppable Force ramps up to full strength while you're mowing adds, hitting full strength just in time for the boss to roll out. It's always been better than Vigilance solo, and even at times grouped up. People just see the number on Vigilance and never realize it's down most of the time when they really want it.

  • LateNiteDelight
    1040 posts

    @categorytheory well that's absurd then, I'd hope coming out of the PTS they'll move Flatline to additive weapon damage.

    Ha.. both Spotter and it's weapon talent companion being amplified is bonkers.. makes me scared they're planning to jack up enemy health/armor..

    Edit: and most Iof those SMGs are on the low end of the SMG DPS scale. The .45 Vector and MP5-N are good though - those two, plus a Fal are what I usually use on my Spotter build for automatics.

  • Bill---
    31 posts

    I think it's too early to be talking about a nerf. As mentioned in another thread a hard counter would probably work better. It wouldn't interfere with how fun it is in PVE but still give PVP players an option to block their opponent's damage buffs. So no one has to go to the other thread the idea is either to give the new brand set pulse resist on the first piece or to add a pulse resist mod. Either would easily solve this issue and help the devs maintain their goal of having better build diversity.

  • CategoryTheory
    137 posts

    @xcel30

    this set does not mention if uses red cores (if it was listed in the notes feel free to correct me) and if the talent amplified damage or not (personally dont think it is), if it's fully amplified then i agree it's too much...

    There is no possible way it can be amplified unless the designers have gone bats**t insane. With stacks this size the multiplicative effect quickly becomes huge. Striker's 100 stacks of +0.65% amp damage multiplies your damage (after all other modifiers) by "just" 91.15%. 100 stacks of +1% amp damage would be 270%.

    Overall, even unamplified I think that this is going to do a lot more damage than Striker's, though, because of the other two pulse amp damage talents and because the stacks, though they all vanish quickly, are a lot easier to build and, so long as battle is hot, maintain. Based on my experience with Striker's, at 25-30 m a Vector with Unwavering will get you to 50-75 stacks in 5 seconds, and at 10 m an ACS-12 (the full auto shotgun) will get you to ~90% in less time than that. (This is in practice; if you try this out in the firing range remember you get a lot more hits there than in actual battle. Or at least I do.)

    Your thoughts on its use as a close-range set are interesting. Yeah, this may be the new way to keep Intimidate working, since you can refresh bonus armour on far-away enemies once you've run out of nearby ones. And it will require more management, which is probably a good thing. (I think the standard Intimidate/Adreneline/Scorpio/Shield build has required a nerf for a while, though I don't agree with how badly it's been nerfed in the PTS.)

    go with the new Spotter + Flatline for a total 40% amplified

    At the risk of getting repetitive, that's not how amplified works. 2 × 20% amp dmg is not "40% amplified"; you don't add them together because they are separate multipliers. 2 × 20% amp dmg is equivalent to 44% amp dmg, a ten percent difference.

  • CategoryTheory
    137 posts

    @latenitedelight

    ...and most Iof those SMGs are on the low end of the SMG DPS scale. The .45 Vector and MP5-N are good though...

    So you're saying that the lowest DPS weapon in my list (where I specifically excluded the UMP-45) is "good," and that ones in that list with higher DPS than your "good" one are on the "low end of the SMG DPS scale"? I think if you look at the actual DPS numbers you'll find you've been confused about what the actual DPS figures are for these weapons. (These figures are all in that standard weapons spreadsheet that everybody uses.) I think also if you explicitly define what range of DPS is "low" and what range is "high" you'll make conversation a lot easier because people won't have to guess at your (apparently strange) definitions of "high DPS."

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