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  • CategoryTheory
    Original poster 137 posts

    The description of an upgrade on an individual item seems pretty clear; my level 2 upgrade on a chest piece says "+2.0% Total Armor."


    I have a nearly identical piece without this upgrade done on it. In a build where the only armour sources are the six gear items' base armour and Keener's watch, that gives 726,095 armour, which is very close to the ~660k from the base armor values read off the gear descriptions multiplied by 1.1 to account for the 10% total armour buff from the watch.

    Using the upgraded item gives 739,216 armour. Working this back, it seems I'm getting 660k × (1 + 10% + 2%), so that "Total Armor" description appears accurate in this case.

    But let's check it by switching out one of my other items to bring in a blue core. A Gila pack I just constructed makes a good test here because it adds both 170k from an attribute and "+5.0% Total Armor" from the brand buff. I'd expect that this then gives me about (660k + 170k) × (1 + 10% + 5%) = 954.5k, and indeed, the game says I've got 954,517 armour.

    So does switching to the upgraded item give me (660k + 170k) × (1 + 10% + 5% + 2%) = 971.1k armour? Yes indeed, it's 971,117. It seems clear that "Total Armor" means what it says, and it's added to the same multiplier that gets contributions from the watch, gear brand buffs, and anything else labelled "Total Armor."

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    EDIT: The following is not correct; I was apparently suffering from a bug where the system was not properly updating my armour values as I changed parts. As N3mB0T points out:

    dont forget the PTS is cluncky you might need to even restart the game to see the real values of what you upgrade , this happens even in the live game with some stuff , and that is why some values you encounter seem funny and dont match the expectations.

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    Just for completeness, I upgraded my mask to "+1.0% Total Armor"; I would expect that I now have (660k + 170k) × (1 + 10% + 5% + 2% + 1%) = 979.4k armour. But no, it's still 971,117. That's unexpected; could it be because both the mask and pack are from the same proficiency category, Striker's?

    Fortunately, I am also Proficient in Providence and have a Providence mask. Putting it in as-is leaves me at 971,117 armour. Upgrading it to "+1.0% Total Armor" still leaves me at 971,117 armour. Replacing the +2% item with its non-upgraded equivalent takes me to 954,517 armour, which is not the (660k + 170k) × (1 + 10% + 5% + 1%) = 962.8k I was expecting. But I'm remind that there's a bug related to switching, and switching the mask out and in brings me to 962,817 armour, which is the calculated value.

    So it seems from all this that it doesn't matter how many Expertise upgrades you have on your gear; only the highest one is used. (And the bug makes perfect sense now, if you're a programmer.) So we need not worry about Expertise adding massive, game-breaking amounts of armour to builds; in the current game, where Expertise Level is limited to 10, no build will have more than an additional 10% added to the Total Armor value. That seems fairly reasonable.

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    Contrary to popular belief, Lorem Ipsum is not simply random text. It has roots in a piece of classical Latin literature from 45 BC, making it over 2000 years old. Richard McClintock, a Latin professor at Hampden-Sydney College in Virginia, looked up one of the more obscure Latin words, consectetur, from a Lorem Ipsum passage, and going through the cites of the word in classical literature, discovered the undoubtable source. Lorem Ipsum comes from sections 1.10.32 and 1.10.33 of "de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum" (The Extremes of Good and Evil) by Cicero, written in 45 BC. This book is a treatise on the theory of ethics, very popular during the Renaissance. The first line of Lorem Ipsum, "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet..", comes from a line in section 1.10.32.

    Contrary to popular belief, Lorem Ipsum is not simply random text. It has roots in a piece of classical Latin literature from 45 BC, making it over 2000 years old. Richard McClintock, a Latin professor at Hampden-Sydney College in Virginia, looked up one of the more obscure Latin words, consectetur, from a Lorem Ipsum passage, and going through the cites of the word in classical literature, discovered the undoubtable source. Lorem Ipsum comes from sections 1.10.32 and 1.10.33 of "de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum" (The Extremes of Good and Evil) by Cicero, written in 45 BC. This book is a treatise on the theory of ethics, very popular during the Renaissance. The first line of Lorem Ipsum, "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet..", comes from a line in section 1.10.32.

  • the_Kettle
    340 posts

    At risk of repeating myself from the other thread, but those conclusions do not match the numbers I got when testing this myself:

    I upgraded the 4 HF pieces of my build (but no other items in the build). My TOTAL armor (according to the stats screen) went from 1,287,017 initially to 1,333,818 at level 1 and 1,380,618 at level 2 - that's a ~3.6% increase per level.

    According to your calculations, I should only have received a 2% increase (as all 4 HF items were upgraded to level 2) but in practice, it was approx 7.2%. I'm not sure why your numbers were different (unless you simply forgot to switch/replace the Striker mask initially after upgrading it?) but it could just be a bit buggy.

    On another note, it's been demonstrated that the maximum expertise level currently achieveable is 24. Whatever their level scaling is, it doesn't appear to follow an obvious pattern!

  • N3mB0t
    1239 posts

    its indeed 60% more total armour with all 6 pieces upgraded , a 700k armour all red core build will go to around 1.5 when fully upgraded.

    @CategoryTheory dont forget the PTS is cluncky you might need to even restart the game to see the real values of what you upgrade , this happens even in the live game with some stuff , and that is why some values you encounter seem funny and dont match the expectations.

  • CategoryTheory
    Original poster 137 posts

    @the_kettle Please do repeat yourself from the other thread if you're posting experimental results; I started this thread in part because I was finding it difficult to dig out actual facts about what was going on from all (apparently) unsupported assumptions and opinions people were posting.

    I upgraded the 4 HF pieces of my build (but no other items in the build). My TOTAL armor (according to the stats screen) went from 1,287,017 initially to 1,333,818 at level 1 and 1,380,618 at level 2 - that's a ~3.6% increase per level.

    As you saw in my post above, you need to take into account the +10% Total Armor you're getting from Keener's watch, and any other sources of Total Armor. If I assume that the watch is your only other source of Total Armor buff, that would make your base armour 1,287,017 / 1.10 = 1,170,015, and the level 1 and level 2 values you give are (1 + 10% + 4%) and (1 + 10% + 8%) of that, respectively. That would indeed seem to indicate that the values on all the pieces are being used exactly as they say (4 × 1% and 4 × 2%, respectively).

    I just went back in and used the Loadouts menu to switch back into the original build I'd started with, but now the original mask has the +1% upgrade and the original chest has the +2% upgrade. This took me to 745,816 armour, which is indeed 660k × (1 + 10% + 2% + 1%). So in my previous experiment I was clearly suffering from whatever bug it is that isn't properly updating the armour value of the loadout when individual items are changed. SIGH.

    Even better, the Providence Mask that I'd upgraded seems to have lost its upgrade, though the resources I used to upgrade it are still gone. (My game did crash while sitting in the Inventory screen shortly after I'd done that upgrade, though I would find it very surprising for that to lose data that should be kept on the server.)

  • Melb4rK4som
    14 posts

    @categorytheory unequipping and reequioping irems,will update the value in the inventory screen. that fooled me too

  • Noxious81
    1257 posts

    I can't say it often enough: a huge "Thank you!" to everyone who keeps testing all that stuff on the PTS and posting their findings here! Thank you!

    On topic:
    I have to say... I am shocked. I sure hope this is a bug. I have also already mentioned in several threads (so also sorry for sounding like a broken record here) that the Intelligence Annex introducing Expertise clearly stated that the bonus would be "1% increase to base Armor value". Which seemed totally in line back then.

    If Expertise was really to allow for 24 upgrades of 1% Total Armor per item... then we are talking about eventually having a 144% bonus for Total Armor on each any every build! This is ridiculous!

    Just two quick examples (incl. +10% Total Armor from Keener's watch):
    A full red DPS build would eventually have 1,676,400 Armor (instead of 726,000 now).
    A full blue build (w/o other Armor bonuses) would eventually have 4,267,200 Armor (instead of 1,848,000 now).

    I can only shake my head in disbelief, reading these numbers. And we haven't even talked about Bonus Armor (Heartbreaker anyone? Memento? Blooducker?) yet.

  • LateNiteDelight
    1040 posts

    @noxious81 700k vs 1.6m really just means you can find cover if you made a mistake in Heroic/Legendary. I don't really think it throws anything off in PvE except making Legendary "too easy" for the 1% possibly - and maybe it lets some good top half of one difficulty folks move up to the lower half of the next step up.

    And 4m Armor means you could finally tank without a shield - which would be nice.

    I'll have to see what those totals do to the PvP matrix, but if it's even across the board, it should just be a wash [if you make a grid matrix with WD and Armor, you'll find they are almost symmetrically balanced before considering talents for TTK].

    My fear though, is they tune up NPCs to compensate. Though maybe this is the last hurrah, so they're giving an EOL power boost like they did for TD1?

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