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  • SSMInStrelsy
    Original poster 1 posts

    I think the new expertise system seems to be a lengthy and boring system at present in pts。At first,it is troublesome to donate weapons and materials. Then,the bonus makes players feel no innovation and sincerity, and the system spends too much materials, which makes new players flinch. Therefore, I hope to postpone the launch of the new expertise system. I personally suggest that the system should limit the use of this weapon to gain experience, such as using this weapon to cause damage or kill, rather than donation, so as to encourage players to try different weapons in game. And the upgrade method will be changed from donating materials to donating the same weapons. For example, donating one same weapon will upgrade one level for the weapon, which can reduce the demand for materials and make it easier for players to upgrade. The upgraded reward should not be just a simple attribute bonus, but add some more attractive rewards, such as exclusive title, exclusive armband and exclusive gun skin, so as to ensure the balance of the game and increase the attraction to players.
    in a word, I think the new expertise system need to be discussed and improved,PLEASE DON'T PUT IT ONLINE NOW

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    Contrary to popular belief, Lorem Ipsum is not simply random text. It has roots in a piece of classical Latin literature from 45 BC, making it over 2000 years old. Richard McClintock, a Latin professor at Hampden-Sydney College in Virginia, looked up one of the more obscure Latin words, consectetur, from a Lorem Ipsum passage, and going through the cites of the word in classical literature, discovered the undoubtable source. Lorem Ipsum comes from sections 1.10.32 and 1.10.33 of "de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum" (The Extremes of Good and Evil) by Cicero, written in 45 BC. This book is a treatise on the theory of ethics, very popular during the Renaissance. The first line of Lorem Ipsum, "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet..", comes from a line in section 1.10.32.

    Contrary to popular belief, Lorem Ipsum is not simply random text. It has roots in a piece of classical Latin literature from 45 BC, making it over 2000 years old. Richard McClintock, a Latin professor at Hampden-Sydney College in Virginia, looked up one of the more obscure Latin words, consectetur, from a Lorem Ipsum passage, and going through the cites of the word in classical literature, discovered the undoubtable source. Lorem Ipsum comes from sections 1.10.32 and 1.10.33 of "de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum" (The Extremes of Good and Evil) by Cicero, written in 45 BC. This book is a treatise on the theory of ethics, very popular during the Renaissance. The first line of Lorem Ipsum, "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet..", comes from a line in section 1.10.32.

  • CategoryTheory
    138 posts

    @ssminstrelsy

    And the upgrade method will be changed from donating materials to donating the same weapons. For example, donating one same weapon will upgrade one level for the weapon...

    That's already there. For weapons and named items, at least, as well as gaining proficiency by having the item equipped (you don't even have to unholster it), you can donate an item of that type at the Recalibration Station and it gives you half a Proficiency Level. (I think that a full level would be too much.) I didn't notice the option to donate materials to increase Proficiency Level, just as a requirement to do an Expertise upgrade, but perhaps I missed that somewhere.

    I personally suggest that the system should limit the use of this weapon to gain experience, such as using this weapon to cause damage or kill, rather than donation....

    That does seem like a reasonable option to consider. I'm not sure how much I like the idea of simply donating items you collect to increase Proficiency, rather than equipping (or ideally, actually using) the item.

  • NanoCrudele
    14 posts

    The system Is decent, nothing too Amazing or impressive but still a nice addition to the game, the amount of resources Is out of proportions right now, i seriously Hope they reduce it

    If the increase in stats Is applied only to a single piece of equipment to maximise a build you Need a lot of Exotic components, not counting the specialization weapon: 9k printer filament more than 10k green and Blue components, and that's for a single build, if you want to max out another build?

    This game Is based on build diversity, if the cost Is so High changing even a single piece you invested so much resources in would be frowned upon

  • CategoryTheory
    138 posts

    @nanocrudele

    ...to maximise a build you Need a lot of Exotic components, not counting the specialization weapon: 9k printer filament more than 10k green and Blue components, and that's for a single build...

    It's a fair amount, but it will happen soon enough for a frequent player. I easily run up 4-6 exotic components in a week without even trying (I have close to a hundred right now), and I've been selling a few hundred skill mods every week because there's little I can do with them.(I don't really have the patience any more to transfer them to an alt to use for crafting optimization parts.)

    But your point about expensive investments reducing build diversity is a good one.

  • NanoCrudele
    14 posts

    @categorytheory
    There Is a limit to expensive, my full build will Need:
    6 Gear Pieces 660
    3 weapons 330
    2 skills 220
    1210 Exotic components, for a single build, let's Say a hunter's Fury

    I'm often the tank for my raid group, another 1210 Exotic Pieces

    A dps red build Is needed
    another 1210 Exotic pieces

    Let's Say the new Exotic Is Amazing and you would love to main It, another 110 Exotic components

    Not being needed or not being required Is one thing, not being possibile Is another, the amount of resources and time needed Is out of this world

  • CategoryTheory
    138 posts

    @nanocrudele Sorry, it's 110 exotic components to upgrade an Proficient item to Expertise level 10?! Are you sure? (I didn't grind enough on the PTS to see the later Expertise levels.)

    I find it really hard to reconcile this with all the worries about Expertise upgrade providing too much extra armour. Even the most dedicated player is unlikely to be able to mine more than about 20 Exotics per week, which makes it more than eight months just to get to the +60% Total Armour that people are complaining about. (On just one loadout.)

    Do you have (or know of) a table listing the resources required for a gear upgrade at each Expertise level? I didn't do much grinding on the PTS, so I saw only the first three levels (level 1: 235/150/300 poly/carbon fiber/fabric; level 2: 270/175/350; level 3: 305/200/400).

  • acidqueen5426
    3 posts

    The Expertise system is fine so far--I play Warframe, so I'm used to a system that's somewhat like this already with their Focus system (except for mats dono--WF doesn't have that). The donation cost is a little bonkers though; if I were to tweak anything it'd be to up the cap on materials that we can have (e.g. doubling the max amounts).

  • NanoCrudele
    14 posts

    @categorytheory

    the current limit for expertise is 20

  • CategoryTheory
    138 posts

    @nanocrudele

    the current limit for expertise is 20

    Ah. Well, I don't think your focus on how much it takes to get one set to max is really a useful way of looking at it, because few players are like to max out one set before buffing others when the cost for large low-level buffs is much less than the cost for small high-level buffs. Given a choice along the lines of adding 1% to a set with 10% already or 5% to a set with 0%, which do you think most players would pick?

    So lots of items will get buffed to levels lower than 20, but still high enough to badly affect certain game mechanics.

    Edit: I finally found a chart of the costs, and while you're right that the Exotic Components costs to get to +20% are very high, there's a very step curve there. You need just over a quarter of those amounts to get to +15%, and no Exotic Components at all to get to +10%. (The only "rare" material you need between +6% and +10% is Field Recon Data, which is fairly easily and cheaply crafted from common green materials and a tiny bit of cash.)

  • UbiChrisMANG
    Community Representative 234 posts

    Thanks for the initial post and all of the follow-up discussion everyone! We've certainly seen a lot of opinions on both sides regarding the Expertise system and the costs associated with it. We will be gather gathering this and other Discussions on the matter for examination, we appreciate all of your input and hope you will continue to give it!

    And also please do continue to play and post when Phase 2 hits and keep posting here in the meantime!

    Official Response
  • OnlyOneMag
    13 posts

    @categorytheory this is ok for you perhaps but you need to keep in mind there are various levels of player out there and the system needs to appeal to everyone. This change needs to consider player retention as well as bringing back players who might have stepped back from the game. If you're casual this system isn't going to be of interest as the end goals are unrealistic high for those players. If you want players to return for the new content again those numbers will be a problem as will the lack of new things. We're also hampering build diversity if you need to spend so much time to get them up to optimal levels while being handicapped for trying new things.

    This of course doesn't even touch on the PVP community. I play a decent amount of conflict and there is no way to gain resources in that mode. You can earn a cache with a single item but you'll never see an exotic and even deconstructing everything for components you'll never see viable gains. DZ is slightly better but I still need to extract which is easier said then done especially in the numbers they are currently talking about for max levels.

    There is one additional thing that is adversely affected here and it is not one my main draw to the game but what has kept me going until this point. Player interaction. A lot of us help lower level players grind gear, raid carries, we donate exotics to them, etc. My first exotic was from a random guy in the DZ who wanted to help. My raid EB and rav were given to me. This not only introduced to team play but once I was able allowed me to pay it forward. I've given away tonnes of gear and exotics, 30 plus EBs alone. That all changes if we need to put 100s into a single piece and I think it kills an important aspect of the game.

  • CategoryTheory
    138 posts

    @onlyonemag

    If you're casual this system isn't going to be of interest as the end goals are unrealistic high for those players. 

    This is simply an incorrect analysis: it is not the case that everyone (or even a majority of people) who can't see themselves getting to "perfect" will reject the lesser benefits they could get from the system and not use it at all. Plenty of players (perhaps the majority) are currently playing on less-than-perfect builds and doing so quite happily. (Even I do this: I have loads of items that are not fully optimized.)

    The costs of getting started on this system are quite cheap. If you load up three or four gear items from the same class (say, three Providence or the standard four of any Gear Set) you will have them Perfected within a couple of hours of play, and have an Experience Level that will let you upgrade them all to give you +3% to +4% Total Armor. Even casual play over a few weeks should easily get you to Expertise Level 4 or 5 if you use two or three different loadouts (and encouraging the use of different loadouts over time is clearly what the designers intend with this system), and that, along with only the abundant basic crafting resources (no Optimization materials, no Exotic components) will let you put +5% on six pieces, for a significant +30% Total Armor increase. Given that the Field Recon you need for up to +10% is cheaply craftable from those same abundant basic resources (5 Field Recon from 50 each of steel, poly, ceramics and cash), I see no reason why someone who's played a moderate amount over six months wouldn't be able to build a full 6× +10% set of gear.

    I've given away tonnes of gear and exotics, 30 plus EBs alone. That all changes if we need to put 100s into a single piece and I think it kills an important aspect of the game.

    Well, first of all it doesn't kill it completely because Exotics are not the be-all and end-all of items in the game. I have plenty of loadouts that don't use any Exotics at all, and especially Named items appear (from my experience, anyway) not to get the attention they deserve from novice players.

    Second, if you decide never again to give away Exotics that will be your choice, but you shouldn't assume that everyone else will be making the same choice. I won't be sharing them quite so casually any more (which I do now mainly because I have no current use for the 100+ Exotic components I already have), but I will still be giving them to those who show a need for them. I probably won't even bother with upgrades past about +15%, at best, but whatever route I choose, if I'm waiting on 20+ Exotic components to do an upgrade, the reward of giving an Exotic to someone who can make good use of it will (for me) exceed the reward of getting that small upgrade a tiny bit sooner.

  • ArthurFriend
    178 posts

    The system is already pretty easy on PTS. Did you actually test just how fast you can reach max proficiency with your items? This is as casual-friendly as it can be. Every player can easily reach expertise level 5 or more, even when not really trying at all.

    And the materials needed to upgrade some favorite items to grade 4 or even 10 are really not that many. And not at all special materials, just the standard ones. And really no casual player will ever need a higher grade on any item to actually become better. Especially when people start investing in expertise and optimization before they have realized how the game in general and specifically these mechanics do work at all.

  • OnlyOneMag
    13 posts

    @categorytheory My ascertain is the system needs to be balanced in such away as to appeal to the largest amount of the player base. Setting requirements exceedingly high are unlikely to bring back players who might have stepped away from the game. Nor will it seriously interest those who play on a more casual basis. The target of any update is not only to fix aspects of the game but to drive sales and user retention. Unrealistic goals don't really accomplish that. Seriously players will do it regardless. Casuals might use the system but like yourself who has several builds not even optimized yet it is fair to extrapolate that if optimization hasn't increased your play time in game this system won't either. You're also failing to take into account the disparity this new system will have in PVP. Unlike optimization which only puts your build out of wack by a few percent points the new system is like being a new level 40 player vs a max watch.

    The exotic I'd really like them not to be such a costly commodity. If they want to use them either make the drop rate more frequent or lessen the upgrade costs associated with it. Conversely they could make it so if you shared the exotic it gave you credit for a component thus negating part of my issue entirely. Player interaction is important to the longevity and popularity of the game. With the fact the game has shepherding they already know the value of it so it'd be a shame to adversely affect that. I'd still like to share exotic but this chart has me and others stockpiling caches which is a stark contrast to Tuesday when my party gave away 8 to one player and last week it was 11. The week previous I invited a random low level in the White House to party and dropped for him. Things like that fail to make sense if I need to max raid builds or PVP ones to remain competitive.

  • CategoryTheory
    138 posts

    @onlyonemag

    Setting requirements exceedingly high are unlikely to bring back players who might have stepped away from the game. 

    Correct. But the requirements to get a small buff are exceedingly low, a few hours of play and a few hundred each of of abundantly common resources. The requirements remain relatively low to continue to get literally a thousand¹ of these buffs, if you're willing to spread them across several different gear sets.

    The requirements to buff any individual item more than about 15 times are fairly high, but that's exactly what you want if you want to keep the players you've attracted back. Your proposal is not about having things available at low cost (which is already the case), but "make everything so cheap that players are quickly left with nothing to grind any more." If you want players to stick around, giving them less to do is not the way to go about it.

    ...it is fair to extrapolate that if optimization hasn't increased your play time in game this system won't either. 

    I've no idea at what argument you're trying to make here, but that logic, while valid, has a false conclusion. (Yes, if Optimization hadn't increased my playtime, the Experience system probably wouldn't, but Optimization did increase the time I spend playing, and the Experience system makes me interested in playing more as well.)

    You're also failing to take into account the disparity this new system will have in PVP.

    While I've not mentioned PvP explicitly, my concerns about Experience buffs being OP are applicable to and would improve PvP as well. But I have a better proposal: all buffs from Keener's Watch and Experience are removed in PvP play. Then players who didn't grind aren't at a disadvantage (at least not from those buffs).

    Conversely they could make it so if you shared the exotic it gave you credit for a component thus negating part of my issue entirely. 

    That's an interesting idea, though as well as the potential for inflation in the Exotic economy there are a lot of complex implementation details that would have to be worked out and programmed. But I like the general gist of the idea.

    If you want to work out some of these, they include:
    a. How do you avoid massively increasing the effective drop rate of Exotic parts by players always giving their exotics to friends who deconstruct them, producing two parts for every exotic? Perhaps Exotics that you've been given cannot be deconstructed, or give no parts on deconstruction?
    b. What do you do when the part you receive for giving away an Exotic would exceed your inventory limit on Exotic parts? If you simply allow players to go above the limit by doing this, you've effectively removed the limit for grouped players who give away Exotics while solo players who pick up Exotics are penalized by still having to do a lot of extra work to get the part (transfer Exotic to stash, deconstruct on an alt, and later merge the alt's inventory into shared inventory).
    c. This would mean that newer players could be flooded with Exotics very quickly, removing some of the grind from the game, and thus removing a reason to play more. How do you handle this?

    There are other issues too. Once you're raising and dealing with issues like this, then you'll be doing game design as opposed to being a player who just throws out random ideas that mostly degrade or even break parts of the existing game.

    __________
    ¹ 1000 buffs of +1% spread across eight loadouts that each have three alternate weapons/gear items would give approximately +10% to everything without requiring any exotic parts.

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