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    Sock_Monkey
    Original poster 561 posts

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    Contrary to popular belief, Lorem Ipsum is not simply random text. It has roots in a piece of classical Latin literature from 45 BC, making it over 2000 years old. Richard McClintock, a Latin professor at Hampden-Sydney College in Virginia, looked up one of the more obscure Latin words, consectetur, from a Lorem Ipsum passage, and going through the cites of the word in classical literature, discovered the undoubtable source. Lorem Ipsum comes from sections 1.10.32 and 1.10.33 of "de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum" (The Extremes of Good and Evil) by Cicero, written in 45 BC. This book is a treatise on the theory of ethics, very popular during the Renaissance. The first line of Lorem Ipsum, "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet..", comes from a line in section 1.10.32.

    Contrary to popular belief, Lorem Ipsum is not simply random text. It has roots in a piece of classical Latin literature from 45 BC, making it over 2000 years old. Richard McClintock, a Latin professor at Hampden-Sydney College in Virginia, looked up one of the more obscure Latin words, consectetur, from a Lorem Ipsum passage, and going through the cites of the word in classical literature, discovered the undoubtable source. Lorem Ipsum comes from sections 1.10.32 and 1.10.33 of "de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum" (The Extremes of Good and Evil) by Cicero, written in 45 BC. This book is a treatise on the theory of ethics, very popular during the Renaissance. The first line of Lorem Ipsum, "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet..", comes from a line in section 1.10.32.

  • GnarlyAtol1793
    643 posts

    @sock_monkey
    right

  • III_Hammer_III
    154 posts

    Would it matter to you if someone explained why it could happen?

  • N3mB0t
    1160 posts

    for such a complex, big, and rich open world they made, i still think it works way better than we could expect from any game.

    i can count with my fingers how many lost npcs or just plain acting weird i saw in my 12k+ plus hours of gameplay , and i do a lot of open world , best part of the game hands down.

    in other games that is a common vision ,but in this the AI and world building with all the diferent activities going on at the same time and interacting with each other and us its even kindda amazing how we rarely see a bug like the one you show.

    i would be more intersted in hearing an explanation on how they achieved that than to hear a technical explanation for StUff happens.

    and before someone links the dev videos on D2 AI and development i already saw them all , if you didnt you should see them too.

    the problem we have in this game is management , the dish isnt making it to the table in time or at all , but its cooked perfect , sitting on the counter , and we are hungry and angry for only being able to look at it and ask for it countless times while the staff mostly keep silent and ignore you.

  • HonestlyOK1986
    199 posts

    @sock_monkey i dont think the problem is people reporting them, i think the issue is they dont have the manpower or ability to fix issues. Take cassie for example, i've been to her twice today and apparently she's fallen on hard times and is selling nothing...

    On the brightside, the new mode has come at a good time as ive hit the 30k dz player kills target i was going for so can refocus on pve now.

  • Oatiecrumble
    791 posts

    For a game like this i expect lots of bugs, but i come accross very few and when i do (oooh, i'm a poet and i didn't even know it) i just take it on the chin and move on.

    Funny thing is the only bug that bugs the hell out of me is the Contractors Gloves stat not showing as god rolled 😆

  • GnarlyAtol1793
    643 posts

    @oatiecrumble
    but over time I would have expected that they would fix these over time, considering the regular reporting of issues.

    Yesterday I played with a full team and did a simple control point, I had 2 crashes (but the only ones yesterday), playing on Xbox one x and not on PC where we have a variance of technologies they have to cope with. Very often I can not complete a task because a NPC is stuck behind a door or a potential remaining NPC can not be found.

    I have no trouble with this because I am not a farmer 😊 and I am used to it.

  • grantsheppard
    26 posts

    @sock_monkey The simple answer is cause they dont care, they really dont! Today i started a new character to replay WONY. Discovered upon arriving in Civic Center that the SHD cache bug (enemy doesnt drop the utility key players need to open the door and get access to the cache) still hasnt been resolved. I've read on a forum that, " they tried to fix it ". Wait what, tried? Which got me to thinking. When players understandably lose their cool because of the unwillingness on ubisofts part to fix bugs and glitches they ban them which is unfair to say the least especially since ubisoft are the ones not doing anything! No one died of words! Lets not forget we had these and other problems in TD1 which never got fixed. Although you should dont be to quick to forgive unless you see actual change. Greed doesnt happen to you, its a choice! Ubisoft, you tell players and community members to be respectful to each other, how about showing your loyal fans/players some and change your way. You are lost!!!

  • Sock_Monkey
    Original poster 561 posts

    @iii_hammer_iii

    Would it matter to you if someone explained why it could happen?


    Why? No, not at all. I am an engineer, so I understand perfectly "why."

    I want to know "how" it still exists...considering the game has been out for over three years. Is there no quality control program at Ubi or Red Storm? Or if there is, is delivering a quality product so irrelevant to them that crashes and bugs are just considered "features"?

    I am near retirement, and in the many industries I worked in bugs existing in such a mature product would have been cause for termination of the project leader - and long before three years.

    Of course, all my "how" questions are hypothetical. In actuality, we all know the answers to my questions already.

  • III_Hammer_III
    154 posts

    @sock_monkey
    I'll take your word for it, that you are an engineer. You don't sound like a computer engineer, though, because if you are, you'd know not only the process, but the very first rule of bug hunting: it doesn't matter which hardware/software you are running, or which industry you are in, you can't fix what you can't see. You have to be able to consistently reproduce the bug in a lab. If you can't, what happens? You should know what happens next, so...

    You also should know how the game world generates, and where.

    And you should also know that those industries you worked in, they all pay millions of dollars a year in service contracts, not $60 bucks.

    And also, you probably encounter the occasional "yeah, we are not fixing that" from OS/software/hardware vendors.

  • Sock_Monkey
    Original poster 561 posts

    @iii_hammer_iii

    you can't fix what you can't see.


    Just to make clear and there's no misunderstanding: are you claiming these bugs don't exist? Are you suggesting the huge catalog of reports they get - videos and all - is fake? All the players see this stuff, but Ubi cannot reproduce it?

    Be honest: is this why you think the crashes, bugs, more crashes, glitches, etc. are still persistent 3+ years on...because Ubi cannot recreate any of it in a lab?

    P.S. No, many of the industries I worked in there was no such thing as service contracts. On some of them, bugs could cause serious injury or even death. Those were fixed post-haste.

    Some it was a matter of customer satisfaction. Yes, the product was much more expensive than a $60 game, but if your (or Ubi's) response is "it's just a cheap game, and seriously, no one can get hurt by these anomalies anyway, so who cares if it doesn't work well?" then I suppose as a company, and a customer, I'd strongly suggest a measure of soul-searching as to what the real purpose of that business is.

    "I got your money now, so I don't give a damn what you think about the product any longer" can work OK for short-term profits, but is never a viable long-term business strategy. I can provide a whole reading list of case example if you'd like more detail (I have an MBA too - lol).

  • HonestlyOK1986
    199 posts

    @sock_monkey take call of duty modern warfare online, i tried to play it again the other day but it said something about a data pack missing...so i tried to download it, massivr fail wouldnt do it, errors everywhere...so thought sod it, i'll uninstall the lot anf redownload the lot...that didnt work...looked it up online and its apparently a huge issue for tons of gamers going on months they havent been arsed to fix...

    Welcome to gaming. The more complex the game the harder it is to fix. I get the impr3ssion for td2 they lost alot of the mains who made the game who understand the code and the kids they hired to replace them have no idea what they're doing or how the game was made.

  • echolecter
    354 posts

    The bottom line is that the people at the top and stock owners, they simply don't care as long as they get their share of the profits. That is the only reason bigger publishers actually make (mediocre) games, not for players but because they generate a lot of money. Once finished, any penny spent on it (bug-fixing) is considered a loss. And that also applies to salaries and trying to keep employees, the ones that do all the work and create the products that are sold. Recently seen a tweet that they opened a can of interns that are now working on this game, so brace yourself ...

    The only problems they solve swifly are those that result in reputation damage, the things that hurt their egos and thus they act and invest more money. Long term strategy is something from the past, it doesn't exist anymore, not in businesses nor politics. We have become a throw-away society and you see it everywhere, just as (expensive) smart-phones get 'renewed' every year to generate more revenue. But at the same time, if they were carbon-neutral they should last for 200 years. The only thing that matters is money, it's sad but true

  • III_Hammer_III
    154 posts

    @sock_monkey

    Wow...

    I was very clear that "you can't fix what you can't see" means that if you can't recreate a problem in the lab, you can't fix it. It says so right on my post. I have personally spent days, on multiple occasions, trying to recreate bugs that people swore they were encountering. And by "trying to recreate" I mean purposely breaking something to see if somehow the bug presents itself, and then, making sure I could trigger it consistently, before diving into the code to fix it. And many times I could not recreate the problem, and I had to get physical access to the system or systems experiencing the problem.

    And many times the answer wasn't even in the code (or at least my code); things like "you have a bad sector in your disk", "you have a faulty stick of RAM", "your network drops a substantial amount of packets every 45 minutes", "this other application is trying to use the same port", "are you aware of the CVE on your embedded java?", "your firewall is blocking this one protocol", "the application needs to start during init 3", "this daemon has CPU priority over this other daemon", "your OS version is not supported", "you updated X to a version that is not supported"... those are a few off the top of my head.

    And the "be honest" BS... if all players experience a bug every time, I'm sure it'll pop up right up in the lab. But that's not the case. I read complaint after complaint about bugs that I have never experienced playing the game. And sure, the players who experience a bug are very vocal about it, claiming that everybody experiences the same bug, which in most cases is not true.

    And even when it is your code, sometimes is as easy as replacing a comma instead of a semicolon, or adding an extra "if"; but sometimes it requires major rewrites.

    The video you posted of mobs inside an object, that happened during the rendering of the game in your system. If the same mob is trapped inside the same object every time, and all players experience the exact same thing in their games, then sure, it most likely than not it can be recreated in the lab and fixed. But if it isn't consistent even in your system, unless someone at Massive logs into your system, runs diagnostics, purposely break things, and are able to recreate the event, there will not be able to fix it.

    You may be an engineer of something, but definitely not anywhere in the OSI stack.





  • Sock_Monkey
    Original poster 561 posts

    @iii_hammer_iii So what platform are you playing on?

  • III_Hammer_III
    154 posts
    just as (expensive) smart-phones get 'renewed' every year to generate more revenue. But at the same time, if they were carbon-neutral they should last for 200 years. The only thing that matters is money, it's sad but true


    Another wow...
    First, companies are there to make money, sure. That's why they are formed. And if they don't generate revenue, they shut down, and no product for you. Simple as that.

    Phones get updated because the technology and features in the phones get updated. If you were to recreate the features of a new phone in, say, 2005, your phone would be the size of a laptop, and you wouldn't be able to fully recreate it feature wise. And cell phones built in 2005, they don't work anymore on the new networks and protocols.

    And sometimes technology changes because it is mandated by governments.

    And you don't have to change phones every year. You can keep one safely for 5 years, but obviously you will not be able to take advantage of new features and technology advances.

  • III_Hammer_III
    154 posts

    @sock_monkey

    If you are trying a PC-console "gotcha!!!", don't. While there are marked differences between PCs and consoles, a console is still a computer, still susceptible to the same protocols, network, hardware, firmware, software, OS, etc. issues as a PC. . Actually, in the big boy computer world, we do use consoles; we just call them appliances. And they experience issues too. And we normally have those in enclosed, controlled networks in dust free, climate controlled locations; with a controlled supply of power. I can't imagine the issues if these appliances would be outside our networks, spread around the world, connected to fluctuating power supplies, suspect internet connections, inside your average house.

    And before you ask about your other programs/games that work flawlessly, go around their forums, and see the issues other users are experiencing that have never happened to you.

    And look, I am not exonerating Massive here; they could very well be sitting around their cubicles laughing at players' misery... but knowing what I know, I am not going to crucify them for every single random glitch that I run into and call them names because they haven't fixed something they can't see.

  • Sock_Monkey
    Original poster 561 posts

    @iii_hammer_iii Um, no. Wrong, just wrong. You do realize the compilers are totally different, right? There's even some unique code for each platform, too. Your phone is also a "computer." You also have "computers" in your car, dozens if it's modern. And in your appliances. But using such a generic, loose term to somehow imply any bug that exists in one will exist in any other "computer" is just rank ignorance. Look at the bug list for PC vs. the consoles; there is a little overlap in a few rare instances, but most are unique and exist separately in each platform (not to mention the PC list is much larger). The "subject to the same protocols, network, hardware, firmware, software" as an answer is also a pretty poor choice, because the hardware, firmware and software IS different, and the network and protocols are irrelevant to the topic.

    At this point it's pretty clear you are so eager just to fling insults and discredit the points that you're trying to imply the well-documented bug list for PC (including the very frequent crashes to desktop, which do not occur on either console) is just a fabrication - despite having zero firsthand knowledge. The thousands of players besides myself are somehow making this up, because your anecdotal experience on your one console doesn't back it up.

    This old man doesn't have the time to play these types of games, so we're done. If you have something rational and productive to add, by all means, please do.

  • III_Hammer_III
    154 posts

    @sock_monkey
    I am not going to waste my time going over the nuances of compiling code with different compilers, but whether you are compiling C++ with GCC or Solaris Studio (just to name a couple that I used when I was working), or compiling something in Solaris or PowerPC, whichever compiler you use to compile an application, the architecture of the system, etc, the application still has to adhere to the same protocols.

    I am not denying anything, I am not implying anything, I am saying what I posted. Period.

    and I am not eager to do anything. And I wasn't the one who started a thread to complain about what it looks to be a rendering issue on your end. But you are doing a good job yourself.

    Have a nice day.


  • KazMiller42
    4 posts

    There are plenty of bugs that Massive (or whoever is in charge now) has not fixed since launch, like that uncancellable broken animation when your character opens an ammo box whilst you have maximum ammunition, or when you have equipped the drone there is a 50-50 chance of the game crashing to desktop with no error message.

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