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  • A_Normal_Ferret
    Original poster 8 posts

    Plenty of the characters in this game sit in the "bad" bin of heroes when in reality they are just on the cusp of being good, redeeming qualities that are kind of ruined by outdatedness. Valk is one of these heroes. I have been having a blast with her but I cannot help but notice a few bits of her kit just don't work under select circumstances or require really janky use of "tech" to get optimal punishes. The goal of this post, besides to put to page my thoughts and get told I don't know what I am talking about by the internet, is to suggest some small changes to her kit that still maintains the entire character and identity, while improving flow and consistency.

    Observations of her kit:
    From what I can see in her kit, Valk has a lot going right for her defensively. She is the only hero in the game currently with a crushing counter, full block, and deflect in the same kit. Most will have any 2 but not all 3. Her crushing counters are also some of the fastest in the game, which has some use in 4v4 modes. Defensively, a good Valk has advantages to defend herself with unique blocks and counter attacks that actually have a decent number of options at their disposal to turn the tide of the fight. The issue is when you look at her offense, which is designed similar to Kensei with the finisher mindgame and 3 hit chains, with ways to shortcut to those finishers. The problem is she has a lot fewer options and lacks the means to force reactions besides her bash, which is intended to make the opponent dodge so they eat her heavy attacks but even then it doesn't always work and is dependent upon matchup. She also bears a few mindgames in her kit that flat out don't work due to being far too slow, like her zone. Couple this with a few baffling ways some parts of her kit work and she falls short of some expectations

    The Changes:

    Guard

    -No longer disappears while Valk is dodging in any direction.
    Reasoning: Valk's guard is a weird halfway between fixed and reflex, remaining there while still but disappearing with a deflect window when she dodges. This makes back dodging super dangerous with Valk, counter intuitive to her full block input. This also means if you neutral dodge and miss the window, you eat the hit. Other heroes in the game possess superior guard "deflects" like Zhan Hu and Kensei, and still maintain guard when doing so without it being game breaking. This change would standardize that for Valk.

    Full Block:

    -Now has dodge frames during startup
    -Now maintains fullblock during initial portion of forward bash
    Reasoning: Valk's full block is unique in that its input is not down in the guard input but a back dodge guardbreak input. Back in the day this was fine as back dodge was much more useful than it is now, as it possessed better dodging capabilities and was harder to grab. Now however this just makes Valk's full block one of if not the worst due to that input alone, couple this with her guard vanishing on dodge and she ends up eating more attacks than she should. Many ask for her ability to dodge out of it back, but I personally think that giving it i-frames would allow it to act as a defensive tool and still be countered as normal, while also remaining unique without much abusability that the dodging out of it might bring. Maintaining the fullguard for a small portion (100-200ms) would allow for a bit more leeway when bashing into a foe who might hit you.

    -Now costs significantly less stamina to activate
    -Now is free to feint/end to neutral
    -Now is free to guard hits
    Reasoning: Her full block also costs FAR to much stamina to use effectively, resulting in upwards of nearly half her pool to counter one attack. Cutting the costs to use it and standardizing things like feinting out of it (which I am not 100% if that costs anything but I swear I have gone OOS doing it) and guarding free. If it still ended up costing too much, the cost of maintaining it could be reduced.

    -Now guarantees a Shoulder Pin on guard of an opponent's attack
    -Forward Move speed/speed of bash increased slightly
    Reasoning: Her bash, outside of her feint tech (which requires super precise timing on the Valk's end by this point, and is almost an exploit really) lacks any significant punish or unique punish. Giving only a guaranteed bash (or the gb with the aforementioned tech) which only gets a light, for half your stamina. Allowing a shoulder pin from this counter strike would not only be not too hard to implement animation-wise seeing how shoulder pin looks, but would bring the punish in line with her "deflect" without having to create and entirely new move. The movement speed or speed of the lunge bash I really only see as a possible change to make it work better at range and likely isn't needed.

    Zone Attack:

    -Stamina cost is now divided between the two hits, rather than paid up front
    -First hit speed increased to match heavy attacks speed, allowing it to be guaranteed in the situations a heavy is.
    -Second hit is now undodgeable
    -Possible tweaks may need to be done to the speed of the second heavy and damage numbers to compensate changes
    Reasoning: So I am not perfect and have been avoiding stating exact numbers in a lot of places, as I lack the means to test any of this for unintended interactions. Her zone, and really her kit, is perfectly fine damage wise as she doesn't seem to do too much for what she gets, it's all pretty standard. The issue with the zone attack is that it has a useless mindgame attached to it. The first hit is FAR too slow to get any reaction, most players above the low brackets just parry it. This negates entirely the possibility of the second hit mindgame of bash or swing. Bringing the speed up to par with her heavy attacks, possibly even slightly faster, would allow for it to be more usable and land more often. The stamina cost changes would be in place to allow the mindgame to not cost more than it should, given it is a 2-stage zone. The second hit being undodgeable would allow it to land consistently when the opponent made the wrong read. Speeds are the major thing I am unsure of here and would require some testing.

    2nd Chain Side Lights

    -Now are enhanced
    Reasoning: This change would be to further build into Valk's focus on finisher mindgames, and would help her get to that point. Couple this with her soft feint bashes and she should reach finishers pretty consistently. HOWEVER: I am perfectly fine if this is not implemented, given the other changes it might not be needed.

    Heavy Chain Finishers:

    -Are now undodgeable
    Reasoning: Valk's entire spear sweep mindgame is based on the opponent dodging to avoid the lights or spear sweep and eating her heavy finisher. This is a fine mindgame and most of the time works just fine, the issues are that there is almost no reason to use the top finisher heavy because it doesn't track and under certain interactions she actually misses this punish, despite the opponent making the wrong read. Making the finisher heavies unable to be dodged would remedy both issues. NOTE: I avoided making the finisher lights undodgeable because I feel that would be too many things on one hit for the lights (throw, blind, AND undodgeable? No.)

    Spear Sweep

    -Speed increased to make it less reactable
    Reasoning: Spear sweep is just a bit too slow, and can be reacted to by higher level players almost 100% of the time. Bringing it into the range of "unreactable bashes" would force the opponent to make a read, and thus facilitates the finisher mindgames, and by proxy could allow the side lights to land more often. If adjustments to the heavy finisher speed would be needed to ensure its landing in a wrong read situation then those changes would be applied as well. Also for consideration would be her punishability, which likely she would have to be made punishable by guardbreak on miss of sweep with this change, to ensure the move isn't unfair. Damage wise though the move is fine, quite similar in a lot of ways to Gryphon's kick.

    Dodge Attacks:

    -No longer vulnerable to guardbreak
    -Increased speed
    Reasoning: I am of the firm belief that dodge lights should be guardbreak invulnerable and dodge heavies should be vulnerable. Furthermore a lot of Valk's best punishes and openers are locked behind a dodge or dodge attack. The increase in speed is to make the attack less easy to counter and to guarantee it off of the deflect, so Valk is not punished because she landed a deflect when she wanted to dodge attack.

    Wild and Wacky Ideas:

    This section is for the ideas that I have mulled over but honestly am not 100% on, as they may be too much or just not work for the feel of Valk's kit. Just things to think upon really.

    -Allowing for spear sweep to be used at any point in a chain.
    This could result in too many spear sweeps being thrown and too easy access to a 26 damage grounding attack. It would enhance the move's effectiveness though.

    -Allowing to chain into a zone attack
    Kind of along the lines of what Nuxia can do, this could add variety to mixups, at the cost of greater stamina cost. However I am unsure if it would really be at home in her kit or even useful.

    -Allowing dodging out of full block
    A lot of people ask for this to be put back, as Valk could do it before. It is an option but I did not include it in my buff idea because I felt it would be too much and too safe with the i-frames idea. Plus I have already gotten a taste of this type of thing with the tg conq, though his was far worse than what this could be.

    Things I Did Not Address:

    I wanted to conclude with some things that I feel I did not address, or chose not to due to lack of intricate game knowledge. First would be core kit costs and damage numbers, which I feel are in an alright place but I could be entirely wrong in that assumption. Furthermore my suggested changes could break some of these values, but I have no way of knowing that. Another thing I chose not to address would be the "Valk tech" as she has some frankly janky things that she can do with her kit, specifically the guaranteed guardbreak on the full guard. Which from my research and practice requires you to land an early full guard block before she "full squats" then feint out and immediately guardbreak. The timing is tight, and I am unsure if it should stay, given I added a dedicated counter. I am fine with her animation fooling with the left light/right heavy into sweep being a different animation as I feel that is much smarter play with the hero and feels more like in depth knowledge of them rather than a possible exploit. Plus it has decent counterplay given it's specific. I also avoided creating new moves, as that could get messy and I feel Valk's kit works for what she intends to do as is, and really I don't see a point where she needs a new move. Lastly, I likely failed to address some of the things I may be unaware of, because I lack knowledge of their existence. I don't spend much time researching meta with this game and doing frame checks, despite playing nearly every day.

    Thank You For The Read!

    Feel free to let me know what you think of this suggestion, whether you agree with some or all of it, or you just want to call me a big dummy. Either way thank you for reading my post, my intent was to keep Valk's identity while also improving her viability. I did not want to just crank her to S tier or remove her identity by just giving her better mindgames that work, and instead opted to improve what she had. I hope I achieved that. Thank you again!

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  • Csodaszarvas_G
    339 posts

    @a_normal_ferret

    Not bad! I feel like Vlak needs a bit better damage output, since it often takes ages until you can defeat someone with her. Her low HP dosen't help either. I would like to see her chaining capabilities extended, mixed up with some Qol changes and wilh some not OP and spamable 50/50s. I also want the devs to be a bit more creative with her when it comes to her rework.

    Here are my solutions:
    https://discussions.ubisoft.com/topic/125089/valkyrie-tg-suggestions-ultimate-version?lang=en-US&_=1652816474382

  • A_Normal_Ferret
    Original poster 8 posts

    @csodaszarvas_g So I gave your post a read and it does do a lot of good things with her kit damage numbers wise, though at this point I disagree slightly with giving her an unblockable, a parry counter, enhanced attacks, undodgeables, and a multifeint zone. Now that I think about it her damage could stand to be tuned up a little bit, along with her hp. I would like her kit to remain largely the same as it is now, without adding too many insane mixups or new moves because those things I feel are the reason why players state a character has "lost their identity"

    Dropping the stam drain and pause from her bashes is fully acceptable and healthy for the game, since stamina bullying is not a fun thing, and I would be open to possibly the parry counter idea, but not much else listed there. The reason for this is not that they are bad suggestions but they would take away from what Valk is, and what people find fun about her, and just slot her in with the rest of the meta pick mind game lot. I don't think people want Valk to be meta, just to be more viable while retaining that skill factor. The fact we agree on some points leads me to believe I am at least close in idea to what she should be.

  • Csodaszarvas_G
    339 posts

    @a_normal_ferret

    An interesting opinion and I appreciate your honesty. Thank you for reading my post.

    To say the truth, it never crossed my mind that my changes would turn Valk into something she's not (at the moment). When I wrote my ideas down I did it with the firm belief that these are just minor changes when it comes to her identity. Literally the only new move in there is the Ram Riposte, everything else is just an improvement over her existing stuff. Tbh, I think that compared to Shinobi's and Conq's rework (which completely changes how they play) my suggestions wouldn't change Valk that much. But that is just a personal opinion.

    Anyway, I actually don't really want Valk to become meta. And by that I mean S tier. I like her and I don't want fights to become child's play when I play as her. That would be boring. I just only want her to be viable and fair to play against the stronger heroes as well. That's why I didn't asked for crazy hit-boxes; big, sweeping unblockables; non-stop HA and dodge cancels after every single move (including bashes). Plus, I tried to balance out my suggested 50/50s with higher that average stamina costs (most of it is coming from the zone attack).

  • Eroglas
    41 posts

    No. Valkyrie is already good other heroes need a buff more importantly than her. Nuxia, shaolin, Jorgunmand.

    Better yet, some heroes need a nerf, like kyoshin, pirate, HL.

    Valkyrie should be last priority

  • DarrowsHowlers
    601 posts

    @eroglas Shaolin is already getting one if you haven't seen. Nuxia is an abomination and shouldn't exist. "To block, or not to block🐒" I would love to see Warlord go the testing grounds next. He is the most outdated hero in the game and cant deal with bashes like Cent. Needs work. But I agree about Valk to an extent. Her biggest issue is her heavy finishers. They need undodgeable on sides as a bare minimum to make her leg sweep viable. An unblockable top heavy finisher would be awsome too. Basically the Shinobi treatment. Make her leg sweep punishable by GB on whiff. Other wise she becomes like HL. Good offense but not unstoppable. Like all characters should be. Valk is definitely not too if the list. Your right about that but she still needs buffs in the future fo keep up with this evolving game.

  • A_Normal_Ferret
    Original poster 8 posts

    @eroglas There was not a single point where I said this needs to be RIGHT NOW or even before the heroes you mentioned. Shaolin is already having his rework done (likely launching next season barring any massive adjustments needed to throw him in for another pass in the TG). These are just thoughts of some buffs that could be applied to her that would make her more viable in my opinion, it doesn't mean that other heroes won't or shouldn't get changed before her at all. At this rate I expect the game to die before Valk is reworked, lol.

  • DarrowsHowlers
    601 posts

    @a_normal_ferret the games on life support after Pirate and crew🤕🥴🐒

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