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  • Eagleyezx
    Original poster 135 posts

    This article is extremely important if we want to understand Ubiflops point of view when it comes to tactical shooters and I'm glad I came across it on a discord group. I'm sure our older Ghosts might have read this before, but it does explain why we are getting the type of games we are getting.

    With that said, I'm confident things won't change at this publisher, and we won't get any future TC title that meets todays requirements of a tactical shooter. It does give a lot of closure from many failed expectations, but let me know what you think.

    First article:
    Christian Allen Wants Your Money To Make A Great, Old-School Shooter That Publishers Don't Think You Want (kotaku.com)

    Francisco last week:

    "The biggest thing is tension. You've been given a scenario. It's non-linear. You've made decisions on where to go, where to place your guys, getting ready to go in. You don't know what's in there. A real [hostage rescue] team doesn't always know where everything is. There's only a few enemies, but you don't know where they are. If they get the drop on you, they're going to kill you. There is an element of reflex to it, but a lot of it is just proper planning and observation and figuring out your situation. But even if you do everything right, it doesn't mean you are going to succeed. "

    And what happened when he pitched his tactical shooter to publishers? Mind you, he was one of the top designers on Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter and Halo Reach.

    The pitch hasn't gone so well. "It's like pitching a flight sim," Allen says. And the publishers rattle off the excuses: "'It's a super-vocal audience.' 'They don't buy a lot of games.' 'They buy one game a year.' 'Console gamers are too impatient; they won't play this kind of game.' Console gamers literally are too dumb to play this kind of game.'

    Wait… did you catch that one?

    ""Console gamers literally are too dumb to play this kind of game.'"
    Really?

    Second article:

    https://attackofthefanboy.com/news/ubisoft-finding-a-balance-for-ghost-recon-future-soldier/: (https://attackofthefanboy.com/news/ubisoft-finding-a-balance-for-ghost-recon-future-soldier)
    “There’s always going to be that hardcore player. There’s always going to be super-hardcore players and you’re never going to keep them happy. They’re just going to want the first Ghost Recon on first-gen Xbox, and they’re going to want to be lying on the ground, camoed up, waiting 10 minutes for a guard to walk all the way back round and then pop him. And that’s fine, but in terms of where we are right now as an industry, there are commercial needs that need to be met in order for us to make the game in the first place. That’s the balance you’ve got to strike. And that doesn’t mean dumbing down, although the net is very quick to say ‘Oh, they’re dumbing down Splinter Cell, they’re dumbing down this, they’re dumbing down that.’

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  • Megalodon-26
    292 posts

    Those articles are from 10 years ago, and games, consoles and console gamers, have come a long way since then. But regardless, that first one is not a direct quote from a publisher, but merely this one guys interpretation of what was said. And since his idea had obviously been rejected, he blamed the publishers, rather than admit that his game was bad. In fact, the game (Takedown Red Sabre) was eventually published by 505 Games on PC (2013) and Xbox 360 (2014), and based on everything I've read, it sucked worse than Breakpoint did at launch. Except they didn't have the resources to even try and fix it.

  • Eagleyezx
    Original poster 135 posts

    @megalodon-26 They might have been from 10 years ago, but it explains where we are today. It confirms a lot of what people have said in the community. Point being, I'm not expecting anything much for the next game.

  • Megalodon-26
    292 posts

    @eagleyezx Well if you don't expect Ubi to do any better in the future, regardless of the feedback the community has and continues to provide, then why bother to keep coming here to post? Surely you have better things to do with your life, than waste your time and energy on a game that you don't like, or a company that you no faith in? Just go play something else that you enjoy. And when the next Ghost Recon does come out, you can either be pleasantly surprised, or feel vindicated, depending on how it turns out.

  • FcAc-No-Moe
    1235 posts

    I don't know about Eagle's point of view but for me, is all about them crapping on a Franchise I hold dear and still love so I am going to keep calling them out until such day that they get bought, shelve the thing and they quit chastising it and/or come up with the proper GR game.

  • Megalodon-26
    292 posts

    @fcac-no-moe Yes, but at some point you have to realize that your discourse has become reduntant. You haven't added anything constructive to the discussion in years. basically all you've have been saying, incessantly, is that providing feedback is pointless because Ubi is not going to listen, and are incapable of creating a good Ghost Recon game. I absolutely loved Rainbow Six, but you're not going to see me going on their forums, let alone every day, posting about how the franchise has been ruined.

  • FcAc-No-Moe
    1235 posts

    @megalodon-26

    And that is your prerogative regarding the Rainbow Six... mine is to call them out on it every chance I get in hopes that I may inform someone on the fence to choose a side.

    So then your solution is what, give up and hope the next doesn't suck as much as this one did? praise them for bringing something that should have been in the game from the beginning and not 1 1/2 years later and half churned? Perhaps you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar but sometimes it is better just to kill them than catch'm.

    If not that, what is your solution and why is it not working?

  • AI.BLUEFOX
    203 posts

    Well, some of us think there is progress. Sure, Breakpoint was a step back at launch, Frontline another, but Wildlands was a big step forward from Future Soldier and the improvements to Breakpoint a recognition that they went wrong and another step forward.

    If you want to frame it as a black and white issue and Ubisoft as a pantomime villain then that's your prerogative, but I don't think it achieves much. As old as they are, and as incorrect in terms of the publisher quotes, the articles do raise an important issue that is still current. To launch a successful game with a significant campaign content as opposed to a mil-sim sandpit, you do need the appeal to be wide. The game has to be accessible to those with real world time commitments such as job, family etc, whilst being deep enough to satisfy the tactical interest that most of us have. Ghost Recon is still our best bet for that, which is why I prefer to try and build on the positives as opposed to deride the negatives.

  • Megalodon-26
    292 posts

    @fcac-no-moe It's not about blowing sunshine up their buts. No, nearly everyone has called them out when they've done something wrong. But the difference between you and most of the other regulars here, is we will actually offer solutions for how they could do better in the future. And even though nobody can make them listen, everything they've done to fix Breakpoint proves they are at least trying to listen to the community, even if some details may be lost in translation / implementation.

  • Eagleyezx
    Original poster 135 posts

    @ai-bluefox In regards to the second article, as old as it may be, I think it's a critically important one. We should hold it up similarly to how we have the Ghost Recon charter and its to say, the reason why we don't have a game that resembles the charter is because of Ubiflops ideology that can be seen in the article.

    And the same principle can be applied with Frontline and let's see how the next game turns out. Heck, we can apply this to all the Tom Clancy games apart from the Division.

    They want to please a wider audience, and not keep to its Ghost Recon 1 core, because they think the industry and trends have changed so much.

    To see a member of staff say in an old article what the community have been speculating for two years is astounding. Particularly when Ubiflop have been absolutely silent about the business decisions they've made recently.

    My hope is that when the new game does come out, and it doesn't reflect what the charter says, we can look at that article again and see why.

    Anyways, I thought it was a great article to archive on the forums as we await the new game.

  • Eagleyezx
    Original poster 135 posts

    @megalodon-26

    This is why we are on the forums because Ubiflop doesn't understand their own industry.

    There’s always going to be super-hardcore players and you’re never going to keep them happy. They’re just going to want the first Ghost Recon on first-gen Xbox, and they’re going to want to be lying on the ground, camoed up, waiting 10 minutes for a guard to walk all the way back round and then pop him. And that’s fine, but in terms of where we are right now as an industry, there are commercial needs that need to be met in order for us to make the game in the first place.


    Escape from Tarkov is a hardcore game but its extremely popular on Twitch.

    Arma 3 gets 15k-20k players a day on Steam, and it is a hardcore game.

    If the hardcores want to post on the forums to keep the conversation going, especially when hardcore tactical shooters get a standing ovation meanwhile Ghost Recon isn't taken seriously, then we have the freedom to do that.

    It's this reason why I call them Ubiflop naturally now without an apology.

  • Megalodon-26
    292 posts

    @eagleyezx While it's true that consoles do attract the more casual gamers, due to the ease of acess compared to PC's, there's more to what games make it to console, than just appealing to a mass market. Most hardcore games like ARMA or Tarkov, are made by relatively smaller independent studios, and may not want to deal with the hassle, or the ability to develop for consoles. Not only do they need to reduce or "dumb down" their control scheme to work on controllers, but there are much stricter guidelines and standards set by MS and Sony that need to be met. Even patches need to be submitted for review, several weeks beforehand. And true modding on consoles has been unattainable so far due to those standards. Games like Far Cry 5, Battlefield Portal, and likely ARMA Reforger, offer limited modding support, but restric the user to only using existing assets created by the developer. I would love to be proven wrong, but until I see someone create something like a full DEVGU mod for Reforger, with weapons, kit and a set of missions on Xbox, I'll be skeptical of the modding limits on console.

    At least with Ubi, and the changes we saw with their Ghost Experience update, we've seen that they've started to realize that their games can be highly adaptable to different audiences. All it requires is a comprehensive suite of settings, and any game can go from being a hardcore milsim, to a casual gamer's dream, regardless of the platform.

  • DanHibikiFanXM
    27 posts

    Heh, Takedown was actually how I met Christian Allen and it was the first event I attended for a video game down in LA. The team at Serellan really did try to deliver, but the game ultimately wasn’t that great. There were just a series of extremely unlucky things that happened during development that dragged it down. Their follow up project was really cool, but it never got much farther than an early build.

    It’s a different time now though, and I think publishers are softening on some things that the Serellan team struggled with.

  • Eagleyezx
    Original poster 135 posts

    @danhibikifanxm Amazing, thanks for sharing. Do you have an idea of what game publishers he approached?

  • Eagleyezx
    Original poster 135 posts

    @megalodon-26 There are games like Demon Souls and Elden Ring that work fine on console and are for a hardcore audience. Importing from PC has nothing to do with it. Ubiflop just thinks it's a bad idea to make Tom Clancy games to suit a hardcore audience.

    The realism mod is a great example. A few tweeks on the game settings, and the game has improved a lot from what I've heard.

    Personally, I played Operation Flashpoint on Xbox which was more challenging and enjoyable in terms of gun fights than Future Soldier, Wildlands, or Breakpoint.

  • DanHibikiFanXM
    27 posts

    @eagleyezx

    I don’t know specifically, but I do know he tried to pitch it to anyone that would listen.

    What’s really funny though was that Ubisoft straight up did the exact same promo event for Rainbow Six Siege that the Serellan team did for Takedown. Like, exactly the same. Same killhouse, same instructors, same everything lol.

  • FcAc-No-Moe
    1235 posts
    @Megalodon-26 It's not about blowing sunshine up their buts. No, nearly everyone has called them out when they've done something wrong. But the difference between you and most of the other regulars here, is we will actually offer solutions for how they could do better in the future. And even though nobody can make them listen, everything they've done to fix Breakpoint proves they are at least trying to listen to the community, even if some details may be lost in translation / implementation.


    And here is where you and I depart and we will have to agree to disagree.

    Again, they didn't listen, they reacted, that is not the same as being proactive, innovative or have created freedom. THEY DIDN'T want to but THEY HAD to, FORCED TO so to speak and it shows in the lack of effort.

    I am not saying THEY CAN'T CREATE or even be creative, I am saying, THEY DON'T WANT TO and it showed, and it keeps showing. I for one I am glad they didn't continue with the charade and decided to stop beating the dead horse, even if it took 2 years to stop.

    Did I play the game? sure, I did. Did I enjoy it? some of it sure but most of it is basic, if not general shooter stuff, stuff that you can see in any other Generic shooter game, Generic stuff that even Indie shooter games do better (like better shooting time and less exploring or vacuuming the whole forest for flowers). There is no innovation but there is lots and lots of Generic assets that a Ghost Recon shouldn't have, it showed, it continued to show and why even most Followers and casuals abandoned it after a few weeks.

    Yet, the same negative guys that are here since the inception of this forum are the ones being asked why are we still here if we hate this game so much? What a joke!



  • Eagleyezx
    Original poster 135 posts

    @danhibikifanxm Almost identical trailers... And yet the game is so different... Doesn't sound like a coincidence.

    Thanks for the confirmation buddy because it really did seem that it was Ubiflop that he pitched to.

    And really explains how they see us, their core base audience.

  • Eagleyezx
    Original poster 135 posts

    @fcac-no-moe On top of what you said, the new Ghost Recon game is set to be released in the next year or so, and I've yet to hear anyone from Delta company who was involved in the production of the game. Everyone in Delta company seemed surprised that there was a new game being produced.

    This tells us that they are actively not wanting to listen to feedback on what they have built so far. And I doubt they've taken community feedback seriously.

  • Megalodon-26
    292 posts

    @eagleyezx I'm not the one you need to convince that a more hardcore military based shooter can do well on console. Unfortunately the few that there have been on console, were seen as too hardcore for most. Remember, on console you're usually several feet from the tv, so it wasn't fun getting killed by an enemy, that you could barely even see on screen, let alone accurately shoot back at, using a controller. Where as combat in even the most hardcore fantasy game, is basically boiled down to hand to hand.

    That's why I think Ghost Recon has the best chance of becoming a game most fans of the genre can enjoy,using the settings to create the proper balance between realism and entertainment.

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