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  • Ganossa_
    Original poster 58 posts

    Everything went well, until ...

    "She (the female wolf) maybe went back to her family"
    "Or maybe she had a husband to go back to ... or wife"

    "... or wife"???

    1. A gay wolf? What are you teaching kids here?
    2. I am pretty certain there have been gay people throughout all human history but the concept of forming a family with a same sex partner is not older than 50 years. Children/babies have been dying since forever in their early ages and everybody's job was to preserve their lineage and survival. Even if people wanted to be with the same sex partner or even if they had sex with same sex partners, they would have never choses to found a family with a same sex partner.


    Please consider what you are teaching in your games and if it is appropriate in its context.

    This kind of conversation would much better fit into Watch Dogs Legion for example, where it is even in the near future.
    There is a lot to teach to kids even in our history that would fit the context better, such as protect the weak, honor your word, tell the truth, follow your heart. You are misleading the player in this case, cause the dialogue is just plain wrong in the context of this game.

    I love AC:V by the way, its a blast to play 👍 More reason to be critical.

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    Contrary to popular belief, Lorem Ipsum is not simply random text. It has roots in a piece of classical Latin literature from 45 BC, making it over 2000 years old. Richard McClintock, a Latin professor at Hampden-Sydney College in Virginia, looked up one of the more obscure Latin words, consectetur, from a Lorem Ipsum passage, and going through the cites of the word in classical literature, discovered the undoubtable source. Lorem Ipsum comes from sections 1.10.32 and 1.10.33 of "de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum" (The Extremes of Good and Evil) by Cicero, written in 45 BC. This book is a treatise on the theory of ethics, very popular during the Renaissance. The first line of Lorem Ipsum, "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet..", comes from a line in section 1.10.32.

    Contrary to popular belief, Lorem Ipsum is not simply random text. It has roots in a piece of classical Latin literature from 45 BC, making it over 2000 years old. Richard McClintock, a Latin professor at Hampden-Sydney College in Virginia, looked up one of the more obscure Latin words, consectetur, from a Lorem Ipsum passage, and going through the cites of the word in classical literature, discovered the undoubtable source. Lorem Ipsum comes from sections 1.10.32 and 1.10.33 of "de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum" (The Extremes of Good and Evil) by Cicero, written in 45 BC. This book is a treatise on the theory of ethics, very popular during the Renaissance. The first line of Lorem Ipsum, "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet..", comes from a line in section 1.10.32.

  • Ebonzone
    26 posts

    @gcc1984 What kids?

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  • Ganossa_
    Original poster 58 posts

    @ebonzone in what world are you living?

  • Gamebent
    26 posts

    @gcc1984 Trump lost. Get over it!
    BTW, this is a game, not a textbook.
    What about the evil witchcraft (burning blades, dark forces, etc...)?

  • Ganossa_
    Original poster 58 posts

    @gamebent who is Trump and what does he has to do with it? Does his loss make wolfs suddenly gay and ancient societies not care about forming families? What is this argument?

    "What about the evil witchcraft (burning blades, dark forces, etc...)?"

    Then make it obvious that gay wolfs and wife-wife, husband-husband relationships are fiction.

  • Gamebent
    26 posts

    @gcc1984 It's the argument that you want to impose some kind of bigoted morality on others when it's a surreal video game aimed at adults, not kids.
    Who cares is there's a gay wolf? I'll bet you don't even know that some animals in the wild kingdom do have same-sex relationships.
    Also, same-sex relationships did exist in Vikings. Do a little actual research before you make ignorant posts.

  • Ganossa_
    Original poster 58 posts

    @gamebent what, you want to teach me now that there are gay wolfs that seek to create offspring with same sex partners? Where did you go to school?
    I also wrote that same sex partnerships existed throughout history but what did not exists is same sex family concepts like wife-wife or husband-husband. Maybe you should take a history lesson.

    Also if you believe that the game made it obvious that both gay wolfs are surreal and wife-wife, husband-husband concepts are obviously surreal in this game then maybe you got it different than I did.

  • Gamebent
    26 posts

    @gcc1984 I didn't say there were gay wolves. That's your straw man logical fallacy. I said that there some animals have gay relationships, so your sad attempt to make me look foolish has backfired.
    The overall point that everyone, including me, is trying to make is that it's completely ignorant for someone to complain that this game is corrupting kids and teaching them unrealistic things when it's mature-rated (not aimed at kids), it's very unrealistic (burning blades, evil spells, can't slaughter priests and other Christians), and no one expects kids to learn from video games.
    You seem to be the only person to think this game is some kind of history lesson, where anything that isn't real is plainly spelled out. Everyone knows AC:V TAKES INSPIRATION from the Viking era, but it's not historically accurate. It doesn't even take any research to figure that out.

  • Ganossa_
    Original poster 58 posts

    @gamebent why does it have to be historically accurate even to make sure to not suggest gay wolfs? What does it have to do with a strawman if that was the plot followed in the game and exactly what I quoted in my post?
    Animals seek to preserve their kind as we did in our past. You know that you cannot argue against it so you bring up useless words such as "foolish, straw man, bigoted, ignorant". These do make you seem not interested to actually formulate a proper counter argument.

    I believe most people playing this game (in hours) will be under 17.

    The only thing you seem to say is gay wolfs and same sex family concepts are obviously not real in the game. Its just not spelled out plainly. I do agree with this so it looks like you wouldn't even need to argue here. Thanks for confirming my original post minus the fact that you believe the audience is entirely 17+


  • Gamebent
    26 posts

    @gcc1984 That's not even a decent rebuttal
    Agreeing that the surreal parts of the game are surreal doesn't validate your bigotry. There is no reason NOT to have gay everything with Viking pride parades and outlawed same-sex marriage if that's what the designers want in a work of fiction. You do understand the difference between fiction and reality right? All you're doing is revealing your bigotry and ignorance.
    Calling your statement a straw man logical fallacy is accurate (look it up). I stated one thing, and you twisted it around to make it easily debatable. I never said wolves are gay in reality.
    Hating on gay anything in a work of fiction is nothing short of bigotry. I'm sure you don't like to hear the truth.
    Your argument that the gay parts should be plainly stated to be fiction while burning blades, not slaughtering Christians, evil spirits, and Vikings teaming up with the English do not says it all. It holds no weight because it focuses on your hang-ups instead of the big picture.

  • Ganossa_
    Original poster 58 posts

    @gamebent and again, the only words you seem to be able to conjure repeatedly are "bigotry, ignorance", as if those would bring any substance to your argument. In the contrary, they are showing your lack in argument skills.

    If there was anything a-historical in the game while being suggested to be historical, I would call it a-historical or surreal. (I feel Assassin's Creed game mostly try to re-create the past historically accurate and I compliment them for that)
    The game suggests gay wolfs and wife-wife (therefore also husband-husband) concepts. Those are the sources I based the argument in the original post on, but you start talking about gay relationships and some animals that might have something you could call gay relationship. Therefore, you are the one that is derailing this argument and you should hold yourself accountable.

    You are then going on already in 75% of your posts that both, gay wolfs and wife-wife/husband-husband concepts are surreal in a Viking game that would want to be historically accurate. I 100% agreed in your previous post and I 100% agree in this post, so please, no need to bring it up again.
    For me the above where not obvious fiction and I conceded that they might have been for you. Maybe for me they are not obvious fiction cause they are obviously existing in our current society (minus gay wolfs), in contrary to burning blades, evil spirits, ... which are also in our times still fiction. Is that so hard to understand?

    Also, lets try to be civil and remove useless attacks from our post, cause I have the feeling you are taking this already way too personal.




  • Ebonzone
    26 posts

    @gcc1984 that is exactly why ESRB exists, you can't really blame the publisher for having people under the suggested age play their games, that's a parental control issue. Like most companies Ubi is aware of which audiences play their games and they try to make it appealing to everyone, this includes all sexual orientations. While you personally might have found that statement controversial some others might have actually found it amusing. Can't please everyone.





  • Ganossa_
    Original poster 58 posts

    @ebonzone I agree but I think Ubisoft would know very well who their audience is and I personally would call 20- pep also Kid.
    I think I can find it controversial and amusing at the same time. I would find it not controversial in Watch Dogs Legion for example (which I own as well), it would fit right in.

    Since you brought it up, I do believe that something can be appealing to everyone even without representing everyone, wouldn't you agree? Or do you think stories about white, straight males are only for white, straight males? That would be actual "bigotry" to quote @Gamebent

    My personal experience with this game was it being very immersive and from everything I saw (other than game mechanics) it to be rather historically accurate. Some fiction fits even in because Vikings had their own fiction in stories and they probably also believed them to be true.
    What took me out asking myself if this was really set in the past was that very unfitting dialogue I quoted in the original post. If they said it about 2 people, it might have been less obvious than with a wolf. And if it was not about wife but partner it would have been rather reasonable.

    That is all 😊


  • Ebonzone
    26 posts

    Just got to play with a high level of tolerance, for instance I could choose to be upset about the fact that you can hit on a lot more men than women throughout the story, or even the fact that (>spoiler alert) your blacksmith's replacement is black (you know.. blacksmith..) and they made her speak like tarzan. Yes I said it Ubi, it won't go unnoticed.

  • Ganossa_
    Original poster 58 posts

    @ebonzone hm, maybe there are more contexts for tolerance in this case but for me its not about tolerance but about immersion. If they game didn't pull me in at the start, I wouldn't care so much for something pulling me out.
    So maybe I cannot tolerate anything that pulls me out of the otherwise great immersion. As an example, I would not tolerate seeing a modern gun in the game, in fact I do not tolerate all the cosmetic items in the shop that are beyond ridiculous and I am happy they are behind a pay wall. But hey, they are are a choice at least.

    I also agree with @Gamebent on the point that not being able to kill civilians is immersion breaking, but only if you do happen to kill one which at least in my playthrough so far only happened once.

    Anyway, I do not want to take too much of your personal time, that counts for both of you. Let's sum it up to, I am happy if there is a lot of things put into a game but as soon as it pulls me in, please do not deliberately try to pull me out again if can be avoided. Maybe a good tip in general.

    -and of course be considerate with what you are teaching (especially in respect of our history and its circumstances though may this not apply here if indeed a part of fiction) cause we are always learning, yes also from video games.

  • Fred_P
    14 posts

    The game isn't even "teaching" about gay wolves. As far as I recall there is a single short line where one child suggests that the wolf might have a mate is it's own gender.

    Never mind the fact the apparent bigotry of getting hung up on this as immersion breaking among so many wildly unrealistic and unhistoric things.

    But that you would take one single throwaway line from a child and present it as the game teaching anyone anything is insane. From your reaction you would think that Eivor himself/herself grabbed the camera out of the air and stared into it saying "wolves are gay, and homophilia is awesome."

    Do you always think comments from children are meant to be taken as super serious teaching moments?

  • FatNinjaMaster
    1 posts

    @gcc1984 Hate to tell you this, but wolves can and do exhibit homosexual behavior, including pair bonding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mammals_displaying_homosexual_behavior#List
    isn't a bad place to go for just a list of mammals that exhibit homosexual behaviors, and the main article lists some of the academic resources that track it.

    As for the idea of forming family with homosexual members as something "new," you'd also be wrong. Ancient Greece, Rome, and Babylon all have written accounts of same sex households. There are post-facto written stories about homosexual households in Central America, the Vikings, pre-Islam Arabic cultures as well. Those are less trustworthy, however, as they were written by Christians and used in justification for going to war with/enslaving/colonizing those groups.

    All of this also ignores polygynous/polygamous households that have been around forever. Do you really think a family with multiple husbands/wives aren't going to involve homosexual behaviors? Hell, there are entire books written about homosexual behavior in Harems during the Caliphate periods, and why that behavior should be encouraged. The "two parent" household is a nonsense tradition that derives from the post WW1 era America anyway, you used to have multiple family households that certainly would have included gay relatives who wouldn't be able to marry out themselves. Your "pretty certain" are just ahistoric beliefs held up by an intentional disregard of homosexuality in Modern Histories.

  • Cell1e
    174 posts

    @gcc1984

    yeah I'm sorry I cant agree with you on that one. Kids shouldnt play this game anyway but if they do Im pretty sure that little dialogue would be water off a ducks back with them.

  • Orca60
    5 posts

    In general : nobody should complaint about anything moral or any principle at all when playing games. At the same time, games are a "way" to influence people minds depending if you are so weak on your principles or you do not know anything about the World history.

    I have seen people complaining about why are we burning churches, why games are offering us homosexuality in general, why we have to have sex in a game, why the game looks gore and bloody, etc, etc, etc .

    Since man and woman exist in this planet, everything that we can imagine has happened : the Catholic church killed millions ( via Inquisition ) because they did not want to pray in temples, they did not believe in God and / or because they were trying to read the Bible themselves. We have had two World wars already and millions were killed in too many different ways. After the last one, there have been wars in several countries and innocent people were killed with even nuclear / chemical and biological weapons. Humanity will continue having homosexuality, we will continue watching blood and gore in the upcoming wars and not just wars, every single day people kill each other for a single dollar / food / power / etc, etc. of for any other reason we cannot even imagine. That is our reality as humans. We will continue watching gays to be married and adopting children. We will continue watching lesbians doing the same thing and we will continue watching people having sex with even animals. Everything is out there and that is a raw reality.

    If the game is showing things that we do not like, then we have the choice not to buy and play the game or play it and accept that even some things may not coincide with our principles. In relation to kids, every single father / mother should be responsible to decide what games their kids should play. Basically, we are in our own and it is up to every single one of us to decide if either or not play this or any game.

    Cyberpunk 2077 is around the corner and that game will be kind of the same or "worse" or "better" depending on your own decision. I am very sure there will be people complaining about everything in that game or any other game that we will have in the future. The fact is that game developers cannot create a game that will satisfy every single principle that we may or not have, so again, it is up to every single one of us to decide if we accept it or not.

    This game Valhalla is based on history. Vikings invaded England and they had to kill, loot and burn churches, they kidnapped, they [censored] and they were bloody as they were getting deeply inside this country. Every single invader since men exist, has been like that. Spain invaded our Continent America and they were also bloody and we were forced to believe in their principles, etc, etc, etc. So .... games are games even though they are based on history. This game Valhalla is IMO, tuned to what happened in real history so I will not complaint at all about why we are burning churches, why it is so bloody, why there are gays, or lesbians, or any other "horrible" thing ( for some ) it is happening in the game.

    What bothers me is the ambivalent personality of some people that criticize something about the game "principle" and not others. For example, people have been complaining about burning churches but at the same time they are ok killing people. Really ? That contradiction in their personality is annoying but again, to everybody his / her own. Period. It is a game and most likely not the first one that you or me have played and it all games for adult people, we will have blood, sex, looting and whatever other things the game offers. I will play Cyberpunk 77 regardless. I have my own principles and they have a very solid foundation based on my own personal experience and no game will disuade from what I do believe in reality.

    Have a nice playing or .... if you cannot afford in your mind what the reality of that era ( where Vikings invaded England ) because the game is hurting your beliefs or principles, then do not play it and go play lego or Mario Bros.








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