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  • Legionario098
    Original poster 4 posts

    I finished the story of Valhalla today and I had some doubts about some aspects of the plot that I wanted to discuss with you. What I understand : Eivor is a reincarnation of Odin, Sigurd is a reincarnation of Tyr, Valka's mother is the reincarnation of Freia and Basim is the reincarnation of Loki. This is an observation according to what I saw since the end of Asgard storyline and the arch of England. But the big question for me is, who is Aletheia for Basim / Loki? Were Layla and Kassandra used by Aletheia as well as Desmond was used by Juno?
    Another interesting point of discussion. The Staff of Hermes literally raised Basim 1200 years after his death. In theory does this mean that the staff is also capable of resurrecting Amunet's remains? Altaïr? Ezio? Or any other dead person with a body / skeleton?

    Now what for me is a big scoop of history. If Basim manages to survive after having touched the staff only once, why did Kassandra die after dropping the Hermes staff at Odyssey ? (remembering that Basim doesn't need to hold the staff to stay alive even though he is over 1200 years old). Could Kassandra be alive in the modern day?
    Another interesting point, if I understand correctly, The Order of the Templars was born from the tomb of the Order of the Ancients, and it is not necessarily the successor to it. Since while the ancients were centered on ISUs, the Templars were anthropocentric and Christian in origin. If what I understand is correct, then we have not yet seen the origin of the conflict between the hidden one's / assassin's and the Templars.
    The way things are going, will Basim be the new villain or protagonist? What do you think ?
    Overall, I think the story was good. By far the strongest point of AC: Valhalla, congratulations to the writers.

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    Contrary to popular belief, Lorem Ipsum is not simply random text. It has roots in a piece of classical Latin literature from 45 BC, making it over 2000 years old. Richard McClintock, a Latin professor at Hampden-Sydney College in Virginia, looked up one of the more obscure Latin words, consectetur, from a Lorem Ipsum passage, and going through the cites of the word in classical literature, discovered the undoubtable source. Lorem Ipsum comes from sections 1.10.32 and 1.10.33 of "de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum" (The Extremes of Good and Evil) by Cicero, written in 45 BC. This book is a treatise on the theory of ethics, very popular during the Renaissance. The first line of Lorem Ipsum, "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet..", comes from a line in section 1.10.32.

    Contrary to popular belief, Lorem Ipsum is not simply random text. It has roots in a piece of classical Latin literature from 45 BC, making it over 2000 years old. Richard McClintock, a Latin professor at Hampden-Sydney College in Virginia, looked up one of the more obscure Latin words, consectetur, from a Lorem Ipsum passage, and going through the cites of the word in classical literature, discovered the undoubtable source. Lorem Ipsum comes from sections 1.10.32 and 1.10.33 of "de Finibus Bonorum et Malorum" (The Extremes of Good and Evil) by Cicero, written in 45 BC. This book is a treatise on the theory of ethics, very popular during the Renaissance. The first line of Lorem Ipsum, "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet..", comes from a line in section 1.10.32.

  • Ragnarok872
    4 posts

    @legionario098 I believe that the relationship between Loki and Aletheia is similar to the relationship between Aita and Juno. About Basim, I have a theory, I think that initially he will behave like a protagonist, he will restructure the order of the assassins and he will put them on an equal footing with the Templars. At the end of the next trilogy, he will reveal himself as a villain after using the assassins to free Aletheia.
    Basim / Loki is a smart guy.
    Regarding Kassandra, I don't know how willing McDevitt is to use her again. But yes, there are no barriers to bringing it back to life after Basim.
    The staff is able to raise the dead. So all these characters you mentioned can return, I just think it's strange ,soft tissues being formed from skeletons ? ... Hahahaha

  • FylkirPanzer
    180 posts

    @legionario098 So in the Jotunheim arc, Aletheia was the witch Angrboda, that Eivor (Odin) initially visited to learn about Hugr (mind) magic. In Norse Mythology, Angrboda is the wife of Loki. So in continuing with the Assassin's Creed modern day, the Isu were looking for ways to survive the coming cataclysm. Odin and others found a way through reincarnation. Alethia found another through transference of her mind and essence to an object, i.e. the Staff of Hermes. But yes, they did indeed use Layla in order to get what they wanted. Alethia is all about calculations, and Loki, is a known trickster and plotter, so the two working together really well helps the whole plan work in the end.

    As far as staff resurrections go, I would assume yes, it can restore the remains of the dead, but I would also assume it would depend on the amount of decay, i.e. just a skeleton, or a corpse of dried flesh like Basim was. Perhaps it can restore skeletons, it remains to be seen.

    I believe Kassandra "transferred" ownership of the Staff to Layla. As you notice them both holding onto the Staff, with Kassandra being more forceful about it, and I assume, "willed" the Staff to the new owner. After Kassandra was no longer able to utilize the Staff's powers, she rapidly aged and died. The same was seen with Pythagoras after Kassandra took it from him. Layla, in this instance, was I assume kicked out of ownership of the Staff since she could no longer wield it, being grabbed by the Isu Simulation Device.

    The Order of Ancients are proto-Templars, as the Hidden Ones are proto-Assassin's. That's the origin of the conflict, but it merely changed faces and ideas when we see the typical Templars vs Assassin's later on. It's just a matter of if Ubisoft want to expand that to show the actual start of the conflict with this game, or if there will be another that fully fleshes the start of the Assassin v Templar groups out.

    I think he might be the new protagonist for a new series of games, because there's still many more centuries in history until we reach the Third Crusade, which is the setting of Assassin's Creed 1. And I feel the third game he'll reveal himself as the villain, all while using the Assassin's to help him restore Alethia and the rest of his family.

  • PotatoePet
    316 posts

    Hyrrokin (The one you give the mead to) is Juno. Dunno how important that is if we consider her arc started in the games and was ended off in the comics. Many people don't even know that Juno is dead and her reincarnation plan didn't work.

    Which is also interesting is that there were more than one nation of Isu. (Or as pointed out in Syndicate I think: Castes) Also depicted by the different writing styles pointed out by Shaun. (Look at the laptop after finishing the game!)

    The Jotun are basically the Capitoline Triad / Greco-Roman pantheon.
    Hyrrokin is Juno
    Suttungr is Jupiter
    Gunlodr is Minerva.
    Angrboda is Aletheia

    The Aesir seem to have some other form of reincarnation than the Jotun but based on the same "mead".
    What "mead" stands for I don't know yet.

    The reincarnations we encounter in game are
    Odin -> Eivor
    Tyr -> Sigurd
    Freyja -> Svala
    Thor -> Halfdan

    In the anamolies we also hear some stuff from Loki and Aletheia after the story we can experience in Asgard and Jotunheim. For example we also get the story of Junos imprisonment. We also hear their plan to transfer Aletheias cosciousness into the staff of hermes.

    I don't think the staff can resurrect people from the dead. I think there is something like a "soul" which was still residing in Basims body which may be the reason he might not have been reincarnated since he was imprisoned. But maybe we have two versions of Basim in modern time, we don't know yet. But as he was trapped and just released the staff was able to heal him as his "soul"/"hugr" was still attached to that reincarnation.

    I think the post above me explains the staff thing pretty good. It has to be handed over. It is also mentioned in the game that the effect of the staff is not just with direct contact. It builds a connection to the host/owner.

    The templars are built upon the exact same principles the Hidden Ones fought. Alfred makes that very clear. He basically only hates the "wrong gods" they worship. All the other stuff of the Order of the Ancients is stuff he likes and wants to keep intact. That's why the fight between the Hidden Ones and Templars started. It is also mentioned that the Hidden Ones basically naturally shifted their name to Assassins. There is also a text in the Hidden One Bureau in your settlement after you finished the game talking about Alamut. So the path is open now for AC: Persia (which is funny as the first AC was actually planned to be Prince of Persia: Assassins)

    Game will probably take place around 1090 CE with Hassan-i Sabbah etc.

  • Legionario098
    Original poster 4 posts

    @fylkirpanzer Yes, what you wrote makes sense.
    I just understood something else about the ending. That specter that appears near Layla on Gray is actually Desmond who has been trying for eight years to find a way to prevent the loop of catastrophes of extinction that humanity is inserted in.
    Regarding the resurrection by the staff. I believe that all people / Isu who have a "Backup" of their essence in Gray are able to resurface. This includes Odin / Eivor, Loki / Basim, Tyr / Sigurd, Halfdan / Thor, Svala / Freyja, and perhaps even Kassandra and Desmond who have had contact with Gray in some way.
    In relation to Eivor, do you think he may have been reincarnated in someone else in modern days?
    It would be very easy for that to happen and this person without the bleeding effect would not even imagine that it is Odin ...

  • Tolkyyn
    136 posts

    So how many of you hated that we couldn't kill Basim/Loki? That our hands were tied?

  • Mordule
    45 posts

    I completed the Anomalies after Story completion. Basim/Loki does explain that he created them. The problem is if you do it this way, the completed video is without sound and you get no further explanation from him or anyone because they have already left the cabin and Layla is stuck in the Yggdrasil machine. I hope Ubi anticipated this and will resolve it later. I know "pre exploration" can cause bugs or continuity problems (I experienced some in Odyssey) BTW he sounds like he is burping when he jumps.

  • Ragnarok872
    4 posts

    @mordule With regard to Loki's hatred for Odin that resulted in the fight between Eivor and Basim I didn't quite understand. Basim says in a conversation with Eivor in Kent County that he lost his wife and daughter after trusting the person he considered to be his best friend. Was he referring to when he was still an ISU? Or was this fate repeated with him in the Abbasid Caliphate just as the fate of losing an arm was repeated with Sigurd / Tyr in England?
    Was Basim's anger at something that happened 75,000 years ago?
    And who was the son of Loki and Aletheia when they were ISU?
    Was it a hybrid?
    And since Odin didn't like human / ISU hybrids, was their son murdered by Odin?
    If that's true, Loki is not a bad character. Perhaps Valhalla was Eivor's redemption for what he did badly when he was an ISU (Odin).

  • FylkirPanzer
    180 posts

    @ragnarok872 He was referencing his past life as Loki and how Odin swore a blood oath to never harm Loki's children. However, Odin is told of his fate by the Nornir, who say that Fenrir, Loki's son, would kill Odin at Ragnarok. Loki in the Asgard Arc smuggled his son (Fenrir) into Asgard so it would live, as Jotunheim wasn't welcoming to his son. Odin later discovered the wolf and plotted of a way to bind it, if he couldn't kill it which involves Tyr losing an arm. As far as Loki-Basim's life goes in the Abbasid Caliphate, we don't have much to go on, it very well could have been a repeat of his previous life as an Isu but it hasn't been covered.

    Loki and Angrboda, in Norse mythology were the parents of Fenrir (the wolf that would kill Odin but Odin would kill it) and Jormungandr (the world serpent, that would kill Thor, but Thor would kill it), as well as Hel (Goddess of Hel in Niflheim). Though for gameplay purposes at least up until this point, only Fenrir is shown.

    In the AC universe it's much the same, though it's slightly twisted with an ISU scheme. Loki managed to reincarnate himself much like Odin (Eivor), Tyr (Sigurd), Thor (Hafdan), etc. and spent a long time plotting revenge. Loki and Angrboda (who is Alethia, with her consciousness now in the Staff of Hermes) plotted to bring their family back, although Loki is the only one to have a physical body again.

  • Ragnarok872
    4 posts

    @tolkyyn Not much, particularly I think that killing Basim in Valhalla is a waste, Basim has the potential to become the villain the series has been needing all along. It makes no sense to kill him now. Also because I liked him too. Regarding the possibility of killing or not killing the main villain of the game, which was an option I had on Odyssey, I saw a lot of people complain about it; so maybe it makes sense for the producers to make Valhalla more linear.
    Killing the king of Wessex is more justifiable than Basim. Since he caused Ubba's death, and the death of Eivor's friends.

  • Ragnarok872
    4 posts

    @fylkirpanzer Yeah, but who was Loki's son when he was ISU?
    Was it a hybrid like Adam or Eve?
    If we draw a parallel so that what happened at Asgard was a metaphor for what really happened, then It means that Loki's son ISU (reality) was different from everything (maybe a hybrid?), And in the same way that happened in mythology, it aroused Odin's fear.

  • FylkirPanzer
    180 posts

    @ragnarok872 His son was Fenrir, the wolf (among others like Jormungandr and Hel but they're not shown). Fenrir isn't stated to be a hybrid or anything other than a massive legendary wolf.

    Odin was only fearful of Fenrir because it would kill him at Ragnarok, which was the reason why Odin to went on his various quests to find a way to bind Fenrir until Ragnarok, and then ultimately live on (reincarnate) after Ragnarok.

  • RNREED2008
    3 posts

    @ragnarok872 I would argue that Loki isn't even the real main villan of this game, I say Odin was in the past storyline. In the ISU era, he screwed over Loki and imprisoned his son because of Loki's Romeo and Juliet romance with another clan of ISU, and Odin is trying to take control of eviors body, estentially erasing him/her. Loki only wants revenge for what was done to his family by Odin. When he attracks evior after they come out of the world tree simulation, he believes Odin has taken over the body and seeks revenge on Odin not evior, basim / Loki mentions that he is rather fond of both Sigurd and evior. While he is the main boss of that storyline, I would say he was misguided more than anything. Now, come to present day, things are more complicated, he betrays Layla as soon as he meets her, and now is reunited with his wife. Those two together, that is a different story eniterly, and they could become the main villans of the franchise.

    Two bits of I really like from this game, one of which I don't think a lot of people aren't talking about is one, the return of Desmond in the grey, could the reincarnations Adam and Eve finally have joined with Desmond and Layla both in the grey and two, I find it funny that after killing her off in the comics, Juno has now appeared in the last two games. Could they be retroactively bringing her back as well.

  • Legionario098
    Original poster 4 posts

    @rnreed2008 I saw the discussion about Loki / Basim, and I agree with you, the impression I had about Basim is that he really believed that he was fighting Odin taking into account the dialogs about betrayal he developed with Eivor. The funny thing is that Eivor didn't understand anything.

  • axlslak23
    100 posts

    @ragnarok872 wife and daughter? I missed that part. Then that would mean that his daughter is Eve. I thought Alethia was Eve. In fate of Atlantis, Kassandra uses the staff like an animus to relieve Alethia's memories as a hybrid that is tested "by the Gods" as a possible solution to keep peace between Isu and humans as dikastes. I thought, Eve was the original hybrid that stole an eden device and woke Adam and started the human revolution and after that the human/isu war. we're led to believe that a solar corona mass ejection is responsible is the event, but the animus anomalies video cutscene is a real memory implanted by loki as an isu. for himself. he says so: I was curious how these anomalies turned out. Maybe I'm wrong but I get a strong suspicion that after aletheia saw what juno and aita did, she decided to get a husband of her own. Adam, Loki. And she didn't steal a piece of eden, she had it all along. She had to go through fate of atlantis to get her own piece of eden and learn how to use it, in which now she lives. And rebelion ensued. Then this mysterious event, described as a mass solar event. But maybe they are lying. Again, that REAL memory of loki shows the isu getting their weapons to face their doom. If it's a solar event... why take your weapon with you?

    I feel like this also ties with the suggestion layla gave desmond. don't look at what you though succeded last time. consider the previous failure a success and start from there. to me, that's a clear indication that the previous story we thought we knew is actually a wrong decision. And we should consider alternatives. Meaning, what if it wasn't a mass corona event. They clearly had the technology to deal with that. And a decision was made that the sun is more dangerous then the humans, and the sun event was prevented but humanity wiped out the ISU as a result. What we saw as a real memory of loki. BUT, since now the ISU are back, including Odin (which is leading me to believe was the top ISU guy, able to come back as a hybrid) that means the conflict between isu and humans is back on. Again, meaning, it is hinted that there's a time changing element to the ISU. In one of the timelines, one of the top ISU guys will return, and Adam ... Loki/Basim, with the assassins (and I'm suspecting templars will also join, because they are the other side of the coin for assassins) will go up against the old ISU. That we played in Valhalla. There's a speech that Basim makes at Eivor's grave. Again, if you consider Odin as the top guy, in the realm of the gods, then he had to be a pretty important ISU. Maybe Jupiter. Maybe one of the brothers. Maybe what we perceive as Poseidon with Kassandra. It's anyway... a very important ISU. And that guy, even through we previously through that ISU were extinct... turns out he came back as Eivor. And not just him. At least 2 other companions. Sigurd and Valka. Were' not told who they are as ISU, but were given glimpses through the religious interpretation of Eivors/valka's potion. And I think also as aletheia's memories (which also could be corrupted by culture btw).

    So going back to the original point, what layla said to desmond. do not consider the current timeline / story. consider the alternative. so what are the alternatives? isu are extinct? no they are not. eivor is clearly a reincarnation of a very important isu. so that premise was clearly wrong. loki is a full isu? we're led to believe that he is, I believe he isn't. And there is more. Everyone seems to think that alethia was full isu. She's not. She is clearly a hybrid as explained by posseidon. What if human / isu hybrids of that time were actually WAY more powerful than isu. And after the isu "save" themselves as hybrids for the future, than take weapons and go outside... what if at that particular moment, loki/adam didn't come out of nowhere. The event which we know as eve waking up adam trying to escape eden, is in fact the cataclysm. when eve comes for adam (which prolly was prisoner of isu) and frees him. And while eve is keeping the gods busy outside (meaning kills all of them), adam is inside, corrupting the computer, mainframe, planet animus however you want to call it, to make sure he follows odin/jupiter or whoever it was till the ends of the earth and terminate all isu.

    does that make sense? or is it just wishful thinking? I feel like we seen the same thing over and over again. And sometimes names change. interpretations change based on cultural lens, or animus, or dna, or straight up drugs, but the story is always the same. it's just that some details are always off. I profoundly feel like the dream sequences in valhalla are the same damn thing we saw in fate of atlantis. it's just that we've experienced it now from another perspective. well, not the entire story, but parts of it. some of the same isu were in both stories. and in other stories. it's just that there are inconsistencies in every story. there's 2 real memories that I trust. Loki's memory after you finish all anomalies, and the adam and eve memory. everything else was tainted by isu technology one way or another. or is simply inaccurate. like that potion that makes very little sense to me.

  • axlslak23
    100 posts

    @legionario098 neither did kassandra. but then again they were someone elses memories.

  • axlslak23
    100 posts

    And I went back to Bayek story line to try to figure out. This particular message sparked my interest. As far as i remember, all messages start with acquiring contemporaneity. but this one in particular is bizzare. pauses and skips.

    if you go with what layla suggested to desmond, to look in timelines that didn't happen... there's something there. I feel an ending coming soon.

  • SolidSage
    1 posts

    @tolkyyn I hated that Balsim revived. It made me feel like Eivor/Odin lost to him.
    AC has a way of doing that, in trying to instill some emotion in the story, they abuse the protagonist (similar to Game of Thrones). It usually just ends up making me feel empty at the story's conclusion.

    I would like to see more games with Eivor/Odin obviously, but that's unlikely. Just another great AC character thrown on the sacrificial pyre, in homage to the almighty profit margin.

  • FylkirPanzer
    180 posts

    @solidsage Yeah, I really wasn't a fan of how they handled Odin in this game, on top of giving you no choice in how you respond to Odin in the sequences when you're dismantling Order members or for key decisions. I think they handled Loki/Basim pretty well though, being the trickster and plotter he is.

  • Jasper13-652_.
    1 posts

    i think that kassandra had touched the staff for to long. many say you must be in contact with the staff but i think alethia laid in this to kill all the users of the staff because the staff regenarate all wounds but the staff let flow a lot of energy in your body and if you stop toching it after round about 1000 year the staff cant hold back the energy in your body und you burn

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