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  • Moved “Must be barred from the other side” A.K.A. The open world of Valhalla is committed to wasting your time.

    9 Likes/34 Replies/583 Views
    AnimusLover
    Original poster 180 posts

    The open world of Valhalla is not rewarding to explore and wastes your time.

    I’d be really interested to hear other people’s thoughts on this, especially from those who do enjoy this world. This won’t be a complete moan thread; I do have some positive things to say but I feel like this is yet another aspect that Origins and Odyssey did so much better.
     
    Let’s start with the main thing that inspired this thread: In Valhalla there are a lot of collectibles and I think Ubisoft tried to prove that they hadn’t just mindlessly spammed the map with them by locking virtually every single one behind a mini puzzle in an effort to make resource collecting seem more “engaging”. The problem is collectibles in excess are inherently dull no matter how you frame it. Therefore, all the puzzles do is anchor you down with something that you would normally do in passing i.e. on the way to the actual main event. What’s worse is that they are superfluous, low effort and BORING. Here’s one I’ve just made up but is stereotypical of the type you will encounter again and again in Valhalla:
     
    There’s a wealth chest but it’s behind a breakable wall. You don’t have explosive arrows yet so you need an oil jar to break the wall. However, the oil jar is in another house. You can’t enter the house through traditional means because the door is “barred from the other side”.  So you need to shoot the wooden window to get in the house that’s barred but oh nos the oil jar is behind several pillars that you need to move. After completing the oh so challenging task of… moving pillars you then break the bar on the door, grab the oil jar and skip to the breakable wall. When you manage to explode the wall you finally get to the wealth chest but you discover that it requires a key to open it. You read the note on the table next to the wealth chest left by the poor soul who was once the owner of said chest. The note gives you a clue about where the key might be located. You pull up your raven and scan the area outside and discover that the key is on some dead guy by a tree. You grab the key (maybe read the note on the dead guy explaining how he met his demise), run back and FINALLY open the chest.
     
    This isn’t a puzzle, this is an endless goose chase where you have to do the thing to do the thing to do the thing to get that other thing to do the thing and I can’t STAND games like that. It’s not too bad the first 20 times but beyond that it’s exhausting, needless busy work in a world that is not rewarding to explore. Thankfully, you can bypass most “barred from the other side” puzzles by using ‘dive of valkyries’ because this game is so unfinished and untested that the developers did not catch that the AOE for this ability extends beyond combat.
     
    BUT THE ABSOLUTE WORST THING about the open world of Valhalla is that it commits the cardinal sin of locking content behind story progression. Not only is this immersion breaking but what it means is you could waste several minutes trying to get a collectible and fail because you needed to progress further in the story or do another activity in order to access it. For instance, at no point does the game tell you that you need to defeat all daughters of Lerion to obtain Thor’s helmet. Consequently, you learn to condition yourself to not bother with collectibles that take longer than 2 minutes to grab until a story arc in that region is complete. As a quality of life feature they could have marked such collectibles with a different colour. Problem solved.
     
    Perhaps the best example of the world of Valhalla not being rewarding to explore whilst simultaneously holding rewards hostage to the story is in its loot system. I knew early on that I wanted the Thor set because looking at its perks it best suited my playstyle. Unfortunately, you can’t get the final piece until after completing the Order of the Ancients story line. That means I had to either play handicapped with a 3 piece for most of the game or switch to another completed armour set in the meantime and potentially waste upgrade resources on a set I didn’t even desire. By the time I got the final piece (the hood) I was pretty much done with all combat aspects to the game. Very, very poor loot system.
     
    Speaking of the Order of the Ancients, wow did they botch that. Firstly, I think it’s bugged? The silhouette is too bright, revealing EXACTLY what each member looks like to the point that it spoils any choices you make in the story if you remember to take a peak at it every once in a while. And AGAIN, so much of it is locked behind said story that it never feels like you’re independently uncovering the mystery. In Odyssey you could be out in the world minding your own business when suddenly some guy with a massive health bar pulls up on you and you realise in that moment that it’s a cultist. Moments like that were exciting and contributed to the idea that Kassandra was being hunted.
     
    The open world of Valhalla is not all bad. I will say that some of the “mysteries” are really quite good. The animus anomalies, for instance, are by far and away the best activity in the game; it’s not even close. It’s very old school AC, and it’s amusing that in interviews Darby acted like the idea of bringing the modern day into the animus was some new concept but that’s literally what the old games used to do. Also, unlike the wealth collectibles, these are puzzles done right. They are finely crafted and require actual thought. It’s not just do the thing to do the thing to do the thing to do the thing. There are only 10 of them and each one is unique and memorable. Layla’s movement also feels far better than Eivor’s; it’s really a breath of fresh air.
     
    The Cairns challenges are also a lovely addition. They’re relaxing, and I think it speaks to the attention to detail when you can look at your stack of rocks and tell instantly whether the next rock is gonna topple it or not. I also like the fact that if you’re creative enough you don’t actually need to use all of the rocks to reach the required height. My only gripe is the controls/camera are quite awkward so you can end up moving or placing rocks that you didn’t mean to which can be frustrating.
     
    The world events are also delightful, they remind me a lot of Red Dead Redemption 2 (which this game desperately wants to be in places but that’s a post for another time). I enjoyed the side quests in Odyssey but I appreciate this approach as well. What I love most about the world events is that they don’t actually tell you how to complete them. I remember one in Lunden where I came across a group of civilians in hysterics. There was no quest giver so I was wondering what all the commotion was about. It was only when I read the notes on a bench nearby that I realised what the problem was. Using the hints in the notes I went around the city attempting to resolve it. It was great. Many of the world events require you to listen out for hints in dialogue or read notes to figure out what to do or what you WANT to do.
    I also love the fact that, in some cases, even after an event is ‘complete’ you have the option to stick around and do more stuff for the NPC.
     
    I know they’re not exceptionally challenging by any stretch of the imagination but I like that the game trusts me enough not to spoon-feed me quest objectives. Sadly, I don’t trust the game. You see Valhalla is a buggy mess and that includes a lot of the world events. One such bugged event made me replay 3 days worth of game otherwise I would have missed out on the platinum. So because world events don’t update your objective you have no idea if they’re working the way they’re supposed to. That one in Lunden I mentioned? Me reading the notes was giving the game the benefit of the doubt but in the back of my mind was the thought that the quest might be broken and that I might need to reload. To approach every world event with that nagging thought in the back of my mind put a damper on any fun I had with them. The other issue with world events and mysteries in general is the way you uncover them which continues the biggest problem with Ubisoft open world games:
     
    They are always aware that you are the player.
     
    Before I elaborate on that though let’s talk about the completely braindead compass because this is one of my biggest issues with how you navigate this world. Changing what objective the compass prioritises with the flick of the camera really makes me think Valhalla was not play tested at all. If I mark something on the map the only distance/miles information I want to see is that which I marked, end of discussion. You can show other icons on the compass but don’t argue with me about what the selected objective should be. Also, why are you telling me where icons are from over 3000 miles away? When I am interested in exploring that I will do so on my own time. The worst part is if you get rid of the compass it removes the selected objective as well. How the hell is this game getting accessibility awards??? Origins and Odyssey had better HUD options than this. Do better.
     
    Rant over. Now back to how Valhalla is aware you are the player. When I’ve said this in the past some people found what I said confusing so hopefully I can explain this a bit better this time: Yes, I am aware this is a video game and video games should be aware you are playing them but the WORLD within it should not, it should behave as if it will carry on with or without your presence. One of the contributing factors to this is a sense of discovery. “Mystery” is not simply what the event is; it’s also WHERE and WHEN it is and that’s what makes a world worth exploring.
     
    I can’t help but think of Ghost of Tsushima and just how superior it is to Valhalla in every single way. Tsushima felt like a fresh take on an old formula whereas Valhalla feels like it’s taking all these new ideas from other GOTY type games but somehow dating them already or just missing the point. Tsushima has frequent “type” activities but the way you uncover them is in stark contrast to Valhalla in that you are REQUIRED to actually explore the map. Sucker Punch (and Bethesda and Rockstar and CDPR) understands that what makes an open world interesting is not the bajillion icons you can see marked on the map but the stuff you CAN’T see. It’s that feeling of seeing smoke touch the sky in the distance and curiosity driving you to go towards it. It’s the idea that you can go through the entire game and never find something that other people will and vice versa. That is the beauty of the open world genre that a linear game cannot capture. By marking everything, by telling me where all the interesting places and people are to see you’re squandering it.
     
    Darby mentioned in interviews that the reason why Montreal ditched the traditional side quest log (which they technically didn’t but more on that in another thread) is because it did not make sense for a Viking to prioritise the petty affairs of peasants in his quest to “pacify”(conquer) England. His statements are completely undermined by the fact that the game literally prioritises these “mysteries” for Eivor by marking them on the map and treating them like one big checklist for him to complete. It removes any so-called “mystery” it could have had because you are letting the player know that anything in between isn’t worth exploring. Perhaps if the map weren’t so damn big you wouldn’t feel the need to tell us where everything is for fear that we’d never discover most of it. If you’re just going to outright reveal where everything is from the start I would rather you at least tell the player what they are so I know whether I want to do it at that time or not. If you’re going to treat your open world like a checklist of chores at least tell me what the chores are.
     
    “But oh nos that won’t do! Because we have ‘Utilities’ and ‘time saver’ packs to sell!!!” And that brings me to the elephant in the room: microtransactions. You see the reason why Ubisoft will never change their open world formula is because you can’t be emotionally pummelled by something you don’t know is there. By revealing that there is at least something in a specific location but not telling you what it is Ubisoft wants to tempt you to pay for that knowledge. “Oh, but you can speak to civilians with questions mar” – shut up, they’re few and far between and most of them reveal stuff you’ve already discovered.
     
    Microtransactions are also the reason why the Vinland arc exists. To be clear, Vinland is designed from the ground up to get you to purchase resource packs. That’s it. There is literally no other reason. “Oh, you’re a thorough player who is willing to scour every inch of the map for the resources you need to upgrade the armour you’ve acquired? Allow us to tempt you with the prospect of speeding up that tedious affair by taking away everything you’ve accomplished at this point and making you grind again to acquire items and tools that you don’t even necessarily want but will need to accomplish your goal in this area.” And despite that, I defiantly still grinded through it, got all the equipment and didn’t purchase a damn thing. I had already paid to be a beta tester for this game on day 1 so I’m not going to pay anymore to NOT beta test it.
     
    And that’s the open world of Valhalla in a nutshell. Grindy, unrewarding, lacking in mystery with a RELENTLESS dedication to wasting the player’s time.

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  • SouldrinkerLP
    316 posts

    @animuslover Just wanted to point that out: Vinland took me around 1 hour to complete. So it's hard to believe Vinland was made for microtransactions. If you loot all supply chests there are you will still have a lot of resources left. And I think you can't buy the ingots via microtransactions, aye?

    Also I only found 3 or 4 wealth locked behind a main story quest. I did enjoy the "puzzles" or so called "goose chase". I wouldn't want them to do the same things again for another game tho. I had enough after finishing this game and if another game would add the same things again I would love it to reduce the overall amount of loot blocked by stuff like this to make these puzzles feel more unique. There were some unique ones too in Valhalla but most were pretty sameish.

  • Harry_Greers
    8 posts

    @animuslover It's little puzzles and most are not hard to solve. And it's the only puzzles in the game. I think those are a nice distraction from running around killing enemies. It's not like you really NEED all those rewards behind most of the doors and walls. Just buy materials from vendors after completing a drinking game.

    Thor's armor is literally the only armor you can't get easily at low level because of those Order guys you have to kill. So in how many games do you get the very best armor for your playstyle at the start of the game?I got the Brigandine Armor and The Hidden Ones Armor at around 50 skillpopints without dying once. It's totally easy to get almost everything in this game without much problems.

  • FylkirPanzer
    180 posts

    I'm torn on the open world honestly.

    As someone who loved everything about Odyssey, including the monotonous (yet repetitive in a positive way) bounty board quests, I felt engaged in the world. I loved how all the side quests, Lost Tales, etc. had actual stories to them, with depth. The world was huge, but it was also alive, with random patrols, or people being attacked by animals, etc.

    In Valhalla that sense of reward for exploring just isn't there. The World Events have no depth to them, typically you stand around and talk to someone for a few minutes or do something, done. That's it? Yawn. The only good one was the one with the stone circle and the guy who kept counting a different number of stones. That was great.

    The only puzzle areas I felt were really great, were the cave trials, since you got a nice tablet at the end of it, which are required to get a mythical weapon. The tattoo paper parkour puzzles were uninspired and boring, and with how Valhalla's parkour works, it was frustrating at points. The door barred thing I didn't mind too much, but it does get tedious when it seems everyone bars their doors from the inside. I've only run into one or two keys which were infuriating, but it was all too straightforward.

    I honestly miss Odyssey the more I play this, yet I've sunk so many hours into Odyssey it's not really worth playing anymore. I miss clearing a bandit camp or location on the map and actually find loot in a chest and off of fallen enemies, you know, being rewarded for my effort. I miss that I had those camps, fortresses, mines, etc to go to and explore. And in terms of fortresses and camps, I could repeat them because the randomized quests on the bounty board facilitated that, again, rewarded for my effort. Exploration in this feels so lackluster and unrewarding that I haven't bothered clearing the rest of the map. I have two shrines left but I hate fishing, so they'll remain unfinished. The animus anomolies were frustrating to some degree, but a nice change of pace, same with the cairns and standing stones; but overall the world feels empty, the world events, and other little dots on the map are boring and provide nothing aside from a pat on the back that you've done them. Oh boy! I found more Ingots instead of an armor piece that could have been stuffed in there, but oh wait, you've already found all of the whopping ten armor sets in game, congrats on your new Ingot which is worthless.

    Finding weapons in chests was alright, but it should have been clearly marked as a weapon chest, instead of an armor icon, thus giving some initial false idea that you'll be finding armor in those chests and not weapons. My disappointment when I found this out was immeasurable. They could have easily put more armor in the game by getting rid of ingots in chests, and pushing ingots onto activities like raids, forts, camps, etc.

    I've completed everything aside from two shrines which require fishing, and a handful of hunting contracts which require me to grind endlessly and hope that RNG favors me with Black Bear Pelts and Dogs Teeth. There is nothing else for me to do in game aside from Reda's contracts, but those are lazy and bland as well as extremely repetitive, i.e. kill wolf near settlement, rescue person from the same two encampments, assassinate literal scarecrow a few feet from me, etc. I really miss the bounty board quests from Odyssey, because you had your main Ore quests to get that ore for the vendor, and you had your regional quests. Even if they were kill this or fetch that, it gave me something to do until Lost Tales or DLC came out, not to mention the Conquest Battles, etc.

    It would have been cool to see more in the open world, like missionaries/monks traveling to cities that you could rob or protect from bandits, or just huge processions of people for special holidays, or even groups of Saxons and Danes fighting each other.

    But while the world beautiful to look at, it is empty, and it's while it screams to be explored, exploration is unrewarding. Too many steps back from Odyssey with this game in its current state. I can only hope that it greatly improves with good updates and far more content.

  • DonParic
    23 posts

    @animuslover Well to be completly honest open world games always end up eather emptish in many parts of the map(like for example Witcher 3 where a lot of the world had nothing worth mentioning) or filled with grindy/repetable things that bring minimal gains(games like Bethesdas Elders Scrolls series or Fallout games) and Valhalla fits somewhere in betwen those two, and i do agree Valhalla lacks abit in rewards section compared to lets say Odyssey(for example they rly cud include like more unique sets/weapons tied to varius activities you do all over the world like for example, legendary animals, roman relics, treasure hoards, fishing and hunting tasks from your village etc...) So yeah thats kinda an inherent problem of open world games in general but yeah some hide it much better than others:)
    While i do in general like Valhalla and some of its changes from Odyssey like no gear lvls and powerlvl instead of actual lvls i do also find its variety of gear to be very limited and lots of side activities like the ones i mentioned before should give better rewards than they do atm. As it is now there is what 14 sets in game if i am not mistaken(4 of which are from shop), and while i am sure there will be plenty more shop based ones as well as additional ones added via dlc/free content updates i do fear at this rate game will have more cashshop gear than ingame gear and i find that very sad for a full priced AAA single player title which is something that in my opinion should never be allowed to happen cuz this is not some ftp MMO whose only revenue comes from cash shop.

  • SouldrinkerLP
    316 posts

    @donparic I am pretty sure they will address this (and may already have this planned from the start) and add way more sets and weapons with the free updates (and DLC).

    Ingots are not that useless too as you can upgrade your armour level which will change its visuals. They should add the option to use older visuals of armour tho. You can do this with Jomsviking already. If they do this an ingot basically means one new armour visual for any armour you have. So it is basically like a new piece of gear. But as it is now it only means you will permanently change one of the gear piece of 10 sets there are.

  • AnimusLover
    Original poster 180 posts

    @souldrinkerlp You've missed my point completely. Whether it takes an hour is not relevant. Whether there are enough chests to loot for resources is not relevant.

    My point is, why is the game even making us do that?

    At that point you've already ravished England of its resources to put into armour that you actually want and are working towards perfecting so what the game is essentially making us do is start from scratch to invest in equipment that isn't even as good as the ones we left behind in England. Does that sound like a game that respects our time? I think not.

    Story wise, its trying to be like chapter 5 in Red Dead Redemption 2 but that chapter had thematic relevance and was not used as a vehicle to push MTs.

    Lastly, you need to trade resources for equipment in Vinland i.e. iron ore, leather which can be bought from the actual store. Don't know about ingots.

  • SouldrinkerLP
    316 posts

    @animuslover Can you or anyone confirm these packs even work in Vinland? There are at least 2 seperate inventories saved in the game. Wouldn't be surprising for me to see that the resource packs you can buy only add to your inventory in England.

  • AnimusLover
    Original poster 180 posts

    @harry_greers That’s exactly my point...”they are little puzzles that are not hard to solve” (“puzzles” is being generous given how simple they are). They are pointless distractions that GET IN THE WAY of a simple collectible. Don’t get me wrong, I like puzzles but “must be barred from the other side” is lazy and unnecessary. Also, they're NOT the only puzzles in the game. One other type is the animus anomalies which I mention later in my OP and use as an example of puzzles done right.

    Actually, you need ingots for the platinum as part of 'completionist all the way' trophy and what you're suggesting as an alternative is grinding open world fluff to make enough silver to buy expensive ingots which don't become available for purchase until you progress further in the story anyway. No, thanks.

    Hold on, you just asked in how many games do we get the best armour for our playstyle early on but then go on to say you got Brigandine and Hidden Ones at 50 skill points. You do realise that for many players these armour sets are best suited for their playstyles? (I used Brigandine for most of my playthrough but I was resentful because I would have had way more fun with the Thor set) So you’ve contradicted yourself, and therefore there is no reason why the same could not be done for the Thor set.

  • SofaJockey
    370 posts

    I'm really enjoying the game (c.170 hours so far)

    But I've developed a 'system' which is to pursue the county's critical path story first, picking up only convenient collectibles as I go along. This means nothing is locked behind plot progression and I'll deal with the remaining items once the county arc is complete. 😊

  • AnimusLover
    Original poster 180 posts

    @souldrinkerlp Actually, you might have a point there. I’m not sure whether those packs would work in Vinland since the entire point is that you have to leave everything behind when you reach it. Maybe someone who bought those packs can chime in to confirm. Regardless it’s still true of England (which is a significantly bigger map) and it’s still a colossal waste of the player’s time to make them start from scratch by grinding the Vinland map for resources to trade for gear when at that point you have literally spent hours upon hours doing that back in England. What’s worse is that I’m not even sure you can use the Vinland outfit upon your return to England.

  • FylkirPanzer
    180 posts

    @animuslover You can't bring those Vinland outfits back to England, the Merchants outfit and the Native outfit. I'd love it if we could bring those back, especially the Merchant outfit.

  • Koyen123
    2 posts

    @souldrinkerlp How does it help us that they'll add something later if we are playing now? This isn't a MMORPG... i'm not going to play this crap twice. So whatever they add later doesn't help one single bit to people who already payed them.

  • SofaJockey
    370 posts

    @koyen123 Really? I've played all AC games more than once (bar Unity and Rogue), but the point is fair, the game should work at launch.

  • AnimusLover
    Original poster 180 posts

    @sofajockey But in an open world game you should be able to tackle activities the way you want. Personally, I'm someone who likes doing side stuff before story. I shudder at the thought of finishing the story and then having to contend with ONLY open world fluff.

  • SouldrinkerLP
    316 posts

    Btw an idea I wrote down in another thread:

    They could implement a "puzzle difficulty" slider. If they split combat difficulty from explore difficulty they could easily split off a third one for puzzles.

    Normal is at is is now
    Easy reducing all puzzles to max 2 steps
    Very easy reducing all puzzles to max 1 step or removing them entirely.

  • Harry_Greers
    8 posts

    @souldrinkerlp So how would that even work? They have 3 different worlds that look different so the puzzles are different? I mean you would need to have the barred doors to be opened from different places, as an example.

  • SouldrinkerLP
    316 posts

    @harry_greers From a dev/world building perspective? You simply mark every part of the puzzle. If you select Very Easy all doors get unlocked and the blocked doors get freed 🙂 You probably wouldn't be able to change that setting midgame tho.

  • JCar4327
    635 posts

    Another post too, too long to waste my time reading because it is obvious all you are going to do is whine, whine, whine. Don't enjoy the game, don't play it.

  • DuskDragon56496
    382 posts

    It's just that type of foolish response that shows you're lacking in understanding at what a forum is and it's purpose JCar. If you don't like the posts why did you even bother to comment in the first place.You see it is a choice...whether to be a fanboy like you, blindingly accepting everything because you're favorite gaming co. says so, or actually having relevant opinions at what the game entails and why some things aren't to the caliber that should be a triple "A" game.Now if you aren't willing to participate in these types of conversations with an open mind and respect for other people believe me we'll understand, In the mean time,I think cartoons are on if you're looking for something more your speed!!!

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