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  • Yesin069
    539 posts

    I just watched the Review from jayvee on YouTube for Black flag and remembered Mary Read. She would be an example for women-who act-masculine done right.

    I really loved her performance in this game and will never forget how her words where the ones that made Edward change his way of thinking and becoming an assassin.

    Sadly she was more of a historical character so the credit doesn't go fully to Ubisoft for creating this great character. When Ubisoft tries to pull a character like that from their head it always seems forced to me. 💩

  • kreutzgang
    635 posts

    @yesin069 she was great.

  • MexicanTemplar
    Original poster 39 posts
    This post is deleted!
  • Torvaldesq
    3 posts
    @patricia81994 I am for my part a fierce defender of female stuff whenever it's possible. And especially when it's historically accurate (see what I wrote above)
    But we have to admit that for Odyssey and Valhalla, it's Greek hoplites/mercenaries and Viking warriors... nothing really feminine in those concepts. So seeing women in that stuff is nice and I think that especially for Valhalla it's historically accurate (once more see above my thoughts), less for Odyssey though... but we cant expect to have "feminine" female warriors, in the XXIth century meaning of the term. Archaeological studies on skeletons of those female viking warriors proved that they were indeed much smaller with thick bones compared to modern women, even their skull have been said to be "rough", which a big lower jaw, and it tends to prove that they were rather masculine looking. It doesnt remove a thing about them being pretty, or sexy, but... in a different standard.
    If we're about depicting history, it's sadly what we have to take in account for remaining historical accurate. But if we want fantasy settings, then no problem, let's have female top-model medieval knights, black Roman centurions, and Nordic samurais...



    That might be true what you say here but this is still a game and when you talk about historically accurate then tell me what about the whole ISU thing did that really happen as well ? And there are much more historically inaccurate things in this game ... where even to begin. And then you talk about fantasy uh ... what i just mentioned ( ISU ) is fantasy or am i wrong ?


    Making a long post because I think there's an interesting point to be made off of this (really this is in response to a number of posts in the thread).

    I've seen this argument of complaints of historical accuracy not working because of the fantasy elements made a lot lately in defense of portraying women in a manner that's very ahistorical in AC, and it's not an argument that should hold weight. At the core of the series premise is that the game mixes in real history - allowing the player to get to experience major historical events - with a conspiratorial history that's secret and hidden, the "untold" part of history (historical figure deaths actually being the work of Assassins, Isu secrets, etc.).

    In order to really get the most out of the concept of combining real history with a fantasy history, in designing any particular game's plot, you want the world that's public, "in the light" so to speak, to be as historically accurate as possible. The fantasy inserts are not supposed to be a blank check for historical inaccuracy, and treating it like one ends up degrading the value of the whole thing.("If we can make up history about the Isu, then let's make up history about all sorts of society dynamics in X time period!")

    Another way to think of it is this. The value of the fantasy plotlines leverages the strength of the historical representation. The more the game world "sells" us on really playing through an accurate portrayal of a time period, the more impactful the "secret" history plotlines are. If the parts that are supposed to feel like real history instead feel fake, it guts immersion in the plot. If instead the world feels very authentic to history, it makes the inserts of the "secret" history feel like elegant and skilled story-telling. I don't know how many people have been playing AC since the first one and went through those plots without seeing spoilers, but if you didn't know they were coming, those moments where you first saw the Isu things hit much harder because the world around it felt so much more grounded in history.

    So relating to the overall topic: Could there have been a handful of women in viking society fighting alongside the men on raids (not just in self-defense at home)? Sure. But they'd have been excessively rare exceptions. And the few bits of evidence for such exceptions are pretty heavily challenged (detailed pretty well in articles like these: https://theweek.com/articles/865878/myth-viking-woman-warrior or https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/09/have-we-finally-found-hard-evidence-for-viking-warrior-women/), probably don't mean what some sensationalist press wanted them to mean, and don't remotely displace the utterly established patriarchal nature of combat and leadership in these historical societies. It's the same for AC Odyssey's use of warrior women. If a side in the Greek city states was using women to fight in those periods of history, it would have been borne out of a desperate situation, likely as the absolute last line of defense because most of their men were dead or defeated. Upper body strength difference between men and women alone would make using women on the frontlines of martial combat a very bad idea. Again, could there have been an exception here and there? Sure.

    But AC Valhalla and Odyssey don't treat female Eivor or Kassandra as an exception in their professions. Warrior women are standard in both games. Hoplites or viking crews are gender-mixed, a woman is treated as likely to ascend to places of leadership in societies that were expressly patriarchal, like Soma (it's one thing to try to sell a woman as being an exception that might fight alongside men on raids, it's another to make them into a leader on the front lines the viking men follow).

    This leads to one last point regarding the quality of story-telling when squeezing this stuff in. One of the oldest ideas in the art of storytelling (Aristotle even commented on it) is that audiences will accept the impossible more easily then the improbable. The "impossible" thing is the buy in. Any story with magic is an audience accepting the impossible. They love to see impossible, fantastical things, but want the characters to react like they'd expect real people to react. Isu stuff falls into the impossible category. Subverted gender dynamics falls into the improbable category.

    AC Valhalla has a TON of historical "sins" other than the subverted gender dynamics of course. The list is extensive, and about the only thing that can be said about why those things don't catch more attention is because most of the audience will be ignorant about what AC gets wrong in those other aspects of history. 1% or less of their audience will be heavily familiar with the history of Vikings, just as 1% or less were familiar with the real Greek history in Odyssey., so the writers get away with all sorts of other ridiculous portrayals of Viking / Saxon interaction. The reason the "warrior woman" dynamic is easily recognized as improbable and historically inaccurate to people who have little or no education in the history periods is because the gender dynamics of physical combat are such a constant throughout human history that they don't need any kind of significant education to recognize it doesn't smell right (even today, in physical combat sports, women are put into their own separate leagues, because we know they'd be decimated by the male leagues).

    The irony of some of Ubisoft's storytelling and gameplay decisions is that a female assassin is a much easier sell in gameplay not based around heavy combat, like the pre-Origins games. A hidden blade to the neck, poison, carefully placed traps... easy to see women doing such things. Charging into an open battle and smashing shields and wrecking men with raw power though? On women characters, it just comes across like a weird pander to modern political expectations.

    Personally, I think the choice of gender for AC protagonists has just led to a lot of crummy storytelling (adding "choice" in general has made the storytelling worse really). A female assassin story can work, but almost certainly making it work well would mean choosing time periods much closer to the modern age, committing to a single set protagonist (no gender choice), re-emphasizing stealth and de-emphasizing open combat (both in story and in gameplay). Of course, I think the most impressive gameplay developed by the AC franchise was their multiplayer gameplay back in Brotherhood, and still feel disappointment it was abandoned rather than upgrading AI to create the same challenge human opponents did. (That multiplayer gameplay really felt much more in line with the word "Assassin" - Hunting others while being hunted, trying to get your kills without revealing yourself, no "health" in combat - getting stabbed meant instant death, etc.)

  • longjohn119
    469 posts

    This has to be one of the worst most opinionated threads I've read in a while .....

    The main problem with the female Eivor is she doesn't have much of a personality, she's just flat and boring and that's a writing/directing problem .... Kassandra in Odyssey was 6 ft, heavily muscled (And in my version has abs most men would kill for) abut still had a personality that made her attractive as a protagonist ..... I haven't played the male Eivor yet despite choosing the "let the Animus decide" option but he might be just as bad .... When I start playing again (which doesn't look like it will be anytime soon judging from the bug reports already coming in for this update) I'm probably going to start over from scratch and choose the male Eivor ..... A good protagonist is someone you can sympathize with and relate to in some way and their s_e_x is largely irrelevant




  • Slimgrin
    20 posts

    I don't get some dev's weird fetish with homely women. Outside of Randvi and Eivor, there is isn't a single attractive woman in all of Norway or England. Odyssey has tons of beautiful women...like in real life, some women are attractive. Why downplay that?

  • longjohn119
    469 posts

    @slimgrin RDR2 was even worse and Cyberpunk woman aren't much to look at either ..... It always seems to fall to the Modding Community to get them to look good .... A big part of the reason Kassandra looks better in my videos is because I'm using higher quality textures for her skin and removing all the dirt on her and other NPCs and just little things like that make all the difference ...... However when they updated the Connect app so we could get our Club rewards it messed up an offset or something and now all the underwear is flesh colored instead of white

  • Patricia81994
    113 posts
    @slimgrin RDR2 was even worse and Cyberpunk woman aren't much to look at either ..... It always seems to fall to the Modding Community to get them to look good .... A big part of the reason Kassandra looks better in my videos is because I'm using higher quality textures for her skin and removing all the dirt on her and other NPCs and just little things like that make all the difference ...... However when they updated the Connect app so we could get our Club rewards it messed up an offset or something and now all the underwear is flesh colored instead of white


    Wt... do you have that often that when you confirm a kill s/he disappears ???

  • longjohn119
    469 posts

    @patricia81994 That's happens whenever you assassinate someone, it's an ability that was added with the LotFB DLC ..... I call it "The disappearing hat trick" but the Ubisoft name for it is Death Veil ..... I like it because I don't have to take time to hide bodies or chuck them over the wall in forts although sometimes I wish there was an option to not use it if I want to lure someone into a trap by leaving a body out but I can accomplish the same thing by killing them with a bow and then putting the body where I want it

    Actually I got lucky there and got a Crit or I only would have taken off 3/4 of his health and would have had to finish him off with a quick Devastating Shot ..... I only had +43% Assassin Damage and a 27% chance of getting a Crit ......

  • Patricia81994
    113 posts
    @patricia81994 That's happens whenever you assassinate someone, it's an ability that was added with the LotFB DLC ..... I call it "The disappearing hat trick" but the Ubisoft name for it is Death Veil ..... I like it because I don't have to take time to hide bodies or chuck them over the wall in forts although sometimes I wish there was an option to not use it if I want to lure someone into a trap by leaving a body out but I can accomplish the same thing by killing them with a bow and then putting the body where I want it

    Actually I got lucky there and got a Crit or I only would have taken off 3/4 of his health and would have had to finish him off with a quick Devastating Shot ..... I only had +43% Assassin Damage and a 27% chance of getting a Crit ......


    Okay i did not know that and i've never used that ability in any of my 5 playthroughs and i never hide bodies anyway or chuck them over the wall when i clean out a fort ( just to much work ). 😉

  • Ubi-Woofer
    Ubisoft Support Staff 713 posts

    I am closing this thread. While some parts have been acceptable criticism of Eivor's appearance / characterisation, a large amount of plainly offensive comments towards / about women and their appearances were made, and we will not tolerate this. Criticism is always welcomed but when it strays over the line into misogyny and sexism, this is not acceptable.

    Additionally, the discussion very quickly went off-topic, and this would be better-suited to a separate thread or (in the case of the Witcher / other game discussions) in the Off-Topic Discussion board. Discuss your romance options and the characters within to your hearts' content over there!

    Please make sure to adhere to our forum rules in your future posts:
    https://discussions.ubisoft.com/topic/76716/forum-rules-and-useful-links

    And please be better. Thank you. 🙂

    Official Response

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