Best posts made by Knight_Raime
Well yes, tap was never meant to be reactable. That's why it had a variable input for the longest time. Making it 400ms with a fixed input time does that. If you dodge attack early enough you should be able to block his heavy if it's committed to. I would know because I had this happen more than once when I was playing duels with Raider 2 days ago. As for deflecting it's never been a good idea to deflect raider's tap and that hasn't changed with his rework. Some assassins can deflect raider rather freely while others cannot. That is the nature of match up knowledge. Allowing all deflects to beat HA reduces match up knowledge which isn't healthy for the game.
I will agree that his damage profile is a bit high though and should be looked at. But besides that his kit is strong but not over tuned and has some clear weaknesses.
"fixed" implies something isn't working correctly in his kit. His kit currently functions as intended.
You're proof about "just gb" isn't very strong proof because the guy tried to guard break beyond the GB vulnerability window. JJ and Zhanhu are the only characters you can successfully guard break during their dodge attack. JJ's because his has extra GB vulnerability and zhanhu's only after he hits you with a light because that forced stun timing plus his dodge attack being forced to always come out at the very end of his dodge attack means he's going to be consistently GBed in start up. Tiandi can both soft feint his dragon dodge into a dodge as well as a dodge light. So trying to GB him is not ideal unless you've already hitstunned him with a landed heavy. As that would force him to dodge later and thus get caught in start up more consistently.
Having 2 cuts be one damage does seem a bit brutal if you focus on that alone. But if you step back a bit to look at the bigger picture those 1 damage lights are actually 4 damage thanks to the bleed and 3 health. Meaning if you land a full combo (say his Kaze stance light into the 3 fujin cuts,) that's 34 damage (12 from non CC kaze light, 10 from the fujin cuts themselves, and 12 from bleed) on top of 12 health gain. For a health swing of 46. That's pretty good. Even if you CC with the light you're only removing 4 damage from that total health swing.
I'm not a fan of CC lowering the damage either because it doesn't feel good even if statistically it makes sense from a balance perspective. This is an issue I noted myself the day of the reveal. Kyoshin is far too dependent on his feats and i'm not fond of that because you cannot always have your feats going. This makes balancing Kyoshin's damage as a whole pretty much a nightmare. If the dev's intended goal is to make him hyper commit to his fujin cuts/fujin force they're going to have to make his stance a lot better. Meaning giving him armor so he can't be interrupted when doing said cuts. Or maybe making Fujin force better by letting it chain back into his combos or his bash. As is Kyoshin is very reliant on his stance to get much of anything done. And his stance has a ton of issues.
I really don't enjoy Kyoshin's that just sit in his stance making it difficult to attack in an 1vx situation since one wrong swing can get you cutscened.
I recognize that BP can also sit in his stance and flip you on that as well. But generally speaking that's not how a BP actually behaves when he's ganking with someone.
And at least with BP when you're flipped you're not open to being nutslammed by Jorm or anything. Kyoshin's cuts set you up for far worse imo.
Ideally i'd like to remove the stamina cost for performing superior blocks (for the blocking anyway, the attack still does cost stamina,) and instead make Kyoshin drain stamina while sitting in stance. It would be a big improvement for his kit overall whilst only hurting a newb tactic that's not very healthy for the player or the game imo.
Boy oh boy I hope you like my walls of text because you're about to get one!
Turns out BOTH dodge attacks and dodge bashes can punish his kick. Also the move does have GB vulnerability.
So you can punish his kick by delaying your input. If you delay to a certain point then Orochi can no longer deflect and will eat the hit if he tries to dodge in response to the delay regardless of what he tries to dodge cancel to. Also, if you have the capability to react on his dodge specifically all DA's that are faster than 600ms can and do punish his kick. The window is slightly more forgiving for those who don't have to wait 300ms for their DA to come out (ex valk, pk, nuxia and goki bash.) This is also the same window that dodge into GB works. Meaning all heros in the game have a read/reaction base punish to his kick if he tries to dodge cancel the recovery. Orochi cannot even block after a whiffed kick.
I'm not sure where people assumed he has no GB vulnerability as I wasn't even hard reacting to his kick and I was still able to get a GB even if they attempted to side dodge cancel their whiff. The only times this wasn't working for me was if the person did a back dodge riptide or a fwd dash light. But both are extremely reactable and give you a light parry. So all you have to do is make a read on his whiffed kick if he's going to side dodge or back/fwd dodge and use the correct punish based on your hero. Storm rush itself isn't ever apart of the mix since it's always stuffable outside of landed heavies.
This leaves his ability to chain on a whiff. Both options are reactable because he has to buffer both to stuff a GB attempt. One of those rewards a light parry punish. However if you're delaying your DA properly you should be avoiding his chain link. I not only tested these things myself against a bot but have been conferring with other people. I'll definitely make a thread/write up for here and the comp reddit if kick complaints get out of hand. But yeah moral of the story is delay your DA if you can. You'll beat basically anything orochi can do cancel wise and avoid being deflected. And he cannot delay his own recovery cancel long enough to deflect/punish your properly delayed attack. If the Orochi waits after a whiff to specifically punish your delayed DA then he's not recovery canceling anymore and it was a read for both parties. If you cannot learn the delay timing or your DA cannot be delayed then just read for his side dodge and dodge into GB (or read back dodge and react punish. You can mix this up by trying to stuff him on the same timing if the fight is true neutral at the time.
It also has extended I frames on buffered input. Both his and conq's side bash do this but conq cannot delay his side bash at least where as goki can. Both should ideally behave like both warmonger and warden when they side dodge bash. meaning the moment they press the button for bash they lose I frames. And additionally Goki should have a fixed input on his dodge bash.
Cross progression is very unlikely to happen due to the nature of the game's dlc being micro based. Games that feature that have a hard time carrying over individual purchases such as those.
As far as cross platform goes it'll likely happen in the future, either when FH2 happens (or the equivalent of it,) or the devs decide to go half way with that. Meaning PC gets matched with series x/s and PS5 and a seperate cross plat of all xbone and ps4 versions. Either way would be done because old gen has significant technical problems that would make matching against PC or even current gen platforms pretty unfair. Personally speaking I think the latter will happen eventually because I see no need for them to relaunch FH as far as technical stuff goes. But I don't work for them so maybe the game looks a lot worse under the hood than the game lets on.
Zero idea what buffer OS is. It hasn't been elaborated on afaik but then again I do not watch every one of Clutch's streams so perhaps he mentioned what the effect of it is when someone asked at some point. We can assume it's another parry based OS simply because it was mentioned in the context of OS's still left in the game post season patch. Guard switch OS I do not have an explanation for how it's done. But to my knowledge you basically end up parrying or your guard switches. However because you don't necessarily have to GS to the attack direction to have guard switch input be recognized by the game that's probably what makes it hard if not impossible to actually tell if someone is using GS OS.
Latest posts made by Knight_Raime
It has 400ms of GB vulnerability specifically because the DA is forced to come out 400ms into the dodge. Making it have any less vulnerability (or giving it a delayable window to any degree,) on a 400ms attack would create a similar situation we had recently with goki's headbutt where you could opt out of mix ups on demand and basically never be punished.
Raider's storming tap has been sped up to 400 his sidestep is now also on the same speed and also not able to get guard broken
They specifically note in the patch notes that Raider's dodge storming tap is still 533ms. And you're generally not going to GB a dodge attack from neutral unless it's a feintable one because non chain based moves generally have their GB vulnerability dictated by the speed of the attack. IIRC all dodge attacks that are 700ms or faster have 100ms of vulnerability. The only way you're going to force a GB on someone in regards to a DA is if you make them block a heavy or they ate a heavy. As the hitstun/block stun forces them to dodge later so you're going to be GBing them in the dodge rather than the attack itself.
In zhanhu's instance you're more likely to GB him after he lands one of his many attacks because they all impart light hitstun which forces him to dodge later. That combined with his forced fixed late timing for his attack means the GB is easier to manage.
They gave him his defensive play back because they wrote themselves into a corner with his new kit's gameplan.
I think they could fix this and still have the stylish moves that he currently uses. But the devs won't likely do it because it would be another huge retooling to the kit.
Essentially what we do is we remove his back flip and front roll from dodges and make them be stance inputs via holding back on the stance button. These stance input versions would behave the same way they do now. As in they would have I frames to avoid things and you'd stick in place to do offense. But you are very GB vulnerable. So say you double confirm light. You can then either press the stance button to back flip or do sickle rain. Alternatively you can hold the stance input after double light to go for the roll.
This essentially puts his unreactable mix up into his chains. Which is what is needed in order to not have his roll get stuffed on reaction. It still also retains his ability to be "mobile" and dodge things if people try to interrupt. The only other option with his back flip/roll would be to make them as bashes in chain that compliment their dodge counter parts but behave differently mechanically. But that would be probably very insane.
Kick wise they just need to give him the ability to soft feint his recovery on double dodge forward kick timing (meaning you can only soft feint the double dodge when doing a forward dodge as the second dodge to avoid hyper turtle powers.) You'd do it via holding the GB input and just tap for GB. This would fix his double dodge kick mix being avoided on a singular timing. And single kick mix is some what benefitted from this change as it too is avoided on the same timing as the double dodge kick.
Sickle rain's input window is broken like shaolin's UB after kick and needs fixing. Additionally i'd like to see his zone cost be cheapened and perhaps be undodgable to have it fit with the momentum it has. I thought about maybe making it so you can dodge cancel out of the second half of the zone or soft feint second half into sickle rain but i'm not sure.
Making forward dodge light enhanced I think would be a bit much considering Gryphon can side dodge into his main mix already with side dodge heavy. I would however like to see it be made undodgable so Gryphone would have an ideal peel tool in team fight scenarios. If Gryphon suffered to get into his main mix I might be more on board with making it enhanced but he doesn't.
I'm neutral to damage changes. I think damage is a bit too high in general for finishers so i'd rather see his damage stay and others be brought down. Even though his mix does reward him with less on average I think that's made up by the fact of how easy it is to access to begin with. So, if Ubi decided to go this route and give him 2 more damage sure. But I don't think it's needed.
I'm in the camp that wants all dodge attacks to have a delayed input window and side dodge bashes (that you don't charge) have a fixed window. Delayable input is nearly mandatory to have a realistic opportunity for target swapping your dodge attacks in a team fight. As I understand it the fixed window was being done by the devs to both make dodge attacks more predictable and thus more consistent to punish. Whilst forcing the opponent to make a choice.
I've rambled on this in the past but they could've accomplished this goal in a much better way without making attacks feel like garbage. All they'ed have to do is give dodge attacks the same window (200-500ms) and have the input for the DA to be treated like a cancel. In that you delay your input specifically to avoid more but you're open to being GBed. Or you buffer your DA to punish but you cut your I frames in the process. There would have to be another change to all DA's of increasing their GB vulnerability by 33ms to make GBing in this scenario a bit more consistent against delayed inputs. It's a lot more work but it actually solves the problems with DA's without downsides. Current gryphon still doesn't have to respect a lot of mix ups because of his I frames. Conversely Hitokiri can no longer use her DA to punish all bashes. Both have a fixed input window. So we still have a meaningless discrepancy for basically identical dodge attacks and the fix done to Gryphon's DA doesn't actually completely accomplish the goals it was set out for.
In addition I'd like Gryphon's forward dodge heavy to be feintable, his shove regains his ability to chain on whiff, and his armor moved forward for his finisher heavies so he can actually trade with them.
-Fwd dodge light is undodgable
-Fwd dodge heavy is feintable
-Fwd bash can now chain on whiff
-Side dodge heavy now delayable between 200-500ms
-Side dodge heavy gb vulnerability increased by 33ms
-Side dodge heavy loses I frames on DA input
-Armor on heavy finishers now happens at 300ms instead of 500ms.
All these changes do is further enhance what his kit currently does. It doesn't make his actual finisher mix up any better. At best it just gives him a slightly better neutral game. He still won't be a good hero but he should be more than serviceable outside of random mm stomping.
Dodge canceling the mix wouldn't improve the mix. And yeah damage for a lot of punishes is up again and it's annoying. I get that they needed to buff his deflect since it was a mix and thus it felt bad for low damage. but getting a GB's punish on a deflect considering how safer it is to deflect on shinobi is absurd. that really shouldn't be doing 24 damage by default. I'd say 14 at most. But as long as it's 20 or less i'll accept it.
Kyoshin's enter time for stance from neutral does not allow him to full block lights on reaction. You essentially failed your read after his frame disadvantage light finisher where as the Kyoshin is reading correctly that you'll try to stuff him. For some numbers it takes him 300ms to enter his stance from neutral, 0ms after a block, and 400ms for recovery canceling. For Black prior he enters at 200ms from neutral and 0ms from blocking/whiffing a light. Warlord takes 200ms for start up in any situation. And conq takes 400ms in any situation.
The hero he most closely compares to for entering stance is BP. His enter is 100ms slower than BP. This is what allows BP to not only flip on reaction to lights but also bashes. Kyoshin on the other hand cannot do lights on reaction unless you blocked an attack beforehand. To further pick apart the comparisons BP's also works on unblockables and bashes. Kyoshin's can't. Also he cannot soft feint into it like conq can. Nor can he dodge out of it like Warlord can. All 4 full block heros also feature cc attacks. Warlord has them on lights, Conq has them on his heavies, dodges, and zone. BP has them on his lights and dodge forward heavy. Kyoshin has it on lights.
When speaking about exit recovery it takes conq 200ms to exit. For BP it takes 300ms. Warlord takes 600ms to GB, CGB, and unlock. However for him to attack, block, and dodge takes 0ms. Kyoshin takes 500ms to dodge but block and cgb/gb take 400ms.
Finally when speaking on the stances we must also talk about what attacks they can do out of them as this makes approaching someone holding the stance with a simple counter potentially difficult. Conq can only zone from full block which is a 600ms attack. Black prior can only bullwark slash which is a feintable 800ms unblockable heavy. Warlord can do a left side UD heavy that is unfeintable and 600ms and 500ms headbutt bash. Kyoshin has a 500ms light, a 600ms zone, and an 800ms unblockable and feintable top heavy.
So to wrap these up into digestable information Kyoshin most closely resembles Black prior. This is because he has varying enter speeds thanks to soft feinting recoveries or instant enter on blocks. Both feature similar mix ups with the stance of a feintable unblockable or an undodgable finisher. Black prior has better defense not only because he enters sooner from neutral (and also 0ms from recovery on whiffed lights,) but because his counter stance works on things Kyoshin's cannot. However where Kyoshin's overall defense is worse compared to BP's he makes up for it with better offense featuring essentially a better mix up than BP's due to having access to it from any opener where as BP only has it from his opening light.
If we're talking raw defensive capabilities you could argue Warlord is better here because he has 2 attacks that will stuff your GB attempt on his stance as well as the ability to instantly block/dodge after letting the stance go. Conq uniquely gets to play around with 3 defensive opportunities in that he can go for a heavy attack that has superior block, soft feint it into full block, and then further protect himself by using zone.
Personally speaking I like to look at Kyoshin's stance like a mix of BP's stance and aramusha's blade blockade. He has some of the defensive prowess BP has but I feel like the kit encourages more proactive use with it similar to BB. I almost exclusively use it like aramusha's BB. I never sit inside it unless i'm trying to reconfirm for a gank. Anyway this was a bit of a ramble. I was attempting to explain that even though Kyoshin can play some what defensively I don't think he has strong defense. Just good defense. Now if he could dodge out of his stance and also hold the stance forever then yes I could agree to nerfing. Heck i'd even be fine with it draining stamina so long as they severely nerfed/removed the cost of stamina for superior blocking with the stance. As is it's very hard to use his superior block and then mix after words because you chug through stamina.
It is a little early to be posting considering we have till the 30th till TG is taken down but I just wanted to kind of vent about new Shinobi. I have a history with the character, for the longest time I truly hated the character. In all my fighting game experiences i've never disliked a character quite so intensely as Shinobi. It is horrible of me to say this but I was kind of glad Shinobi was getting left behind and forgotten by players as it meant I never had to deal with them much if at all. However, once upon a time back when I was far more active on the forum and creating more threads I created a rework post for the character. I didn't ever expect it to actually happen because it basically changed the character to be something entirely different. Then we got last TG's Shinobi and well, most of my suggestions made it into the rework in some way or another (ex I suggested the front roll mix both with kick and sickle rain properties and that happened. I also suggested ranged heavy let him roll regardless via being enhanced. But they made it a bash. Same outcome just different property.)
Needless to say I was now invested in this character. Not only were my suggestions there but he was also insanely fun to fight and also play minus some kinks that TG v2 ironed out. However after extensively playing the new Shinobi v2 I have to admit something I don't think i've ever admitted to before. My suggestions were bad. The ideas I put forth on paper that sounded good ended up not turning out good. This is very upsetting for me. I never assume that i'm always right/I know best. But it kind of hurts when I didn't foresee a problem. So yadda yadda enough moaning Raime what's the big problem?
Well, his forward roll mix of flip kick or sickle rain doesn't work. Like, ever. You can quite literally react to his roll and delay your input slightly to stuff him every single time. He cannot interrupt the stuff with the flip kick. Nor will either sickle rain be able to come out and be feinted. This means for all intents and purposes in high level play Shinobi's only mix will never work forcing Shinobi to turtle. But what about his dodge/double dodge mix? Surely he can initiate right? No, Double dodge has a set single time that you can use to dodge everything. The kick, the lights, the heavy, even heavy feint to GB won't catch. So what about the singular kick then? It's avoided on the same timing actually. Even if the kick wasn't avoided on the same timing it has nothing to back up the mix since the only thing you have access to on single dodge is the kick so you'd only need to react to orange and it'll never land.
This doesn't only effect his duels either. Shinobi doesn't have much of a place in 4's. He can gank and rotate. But he doesn't offer anything in a team fight because he lacks good peel and hitboxes. So he's basically forced to just stall in 1vx or xvx situations. So ultimately what does this mean if his rework goes live as is? He'll be a usable character for the average player base. Higher skill floor with not much of a pay out for mastering. In high level play he's basically dead. Shinobi has some okay tools to make him a decent turtle. But that's about it. The worst thing is while the fix for his kick mix up situation is pretty easy to solve the issue for the roll isn't.
If they speed up the roll to make it unreactable you shorten the I frames it has which would ironically make the read to stuff his roll even easier. You can't make it armored because bash based heros can stuff it still on pretty much the same timing. Giving it super armor or giving the roll more I frames would be very chaotic and probably shift Shinobi back into being busted yet again. We can't really give him a ranged move from back flip because of similar issues we've already dealt with in the past. live ranged attacks were useless in 1's. Even the TG ranged one was useless in 1's but both it and live ranged attacks were annoying externally. The only way to truly save Shinobi? Basically another huge rework to something that doesn't rely on neutral dodges for combos.
I could try to flesh something out but I feel like ultimately it would be a waste of time. As any effort to fix this problem would be another massive undertaking for the devs and I really don't think they want to take him back to the drawing board again. Anyway, i'm done venting now. I hope you guys can find some way to enjoy the character still when this gets pushed live. Since I really only care about how a hero performs in high/comp level play these findings have essentially ruined the character for me. So I don't imagine i'll be picking him up as a character I continually visit in my rotation of heros.
Yeah i'm not fond of the animation. I think it could feel even a bit more scuffed just because he does twirl his blade around in stance so it's hard to actually follow it. That's why I bothered mentioning the spinning for the other 2 moves. Because that's easily identifiable body language that you can practice and eventually react to. In the lights case both when I was blocking and parrying I was reacting to indicator alone instead of animation. It's kind of a forced habit since I play full block stance characters a lot (since I have small brain and cannot deal with external attacks great yet.) So having to rely on indicator is usually how I can fast react to things.