TLDR: Based on the bones of the rework alone it's good, but there are a handful of issues that need to be addressed which should at the very least see the delay of his rework being released on live.

The goal of this post is to highlight the good and bad of the rework. If you would like a visual representation of the numbers being talked about here I'd suggest Looking at Freeze's newest video on the rework. At the end I will give my personal suggestions for adjusting the rework going forward.

Animation quality: So this is a pretty easy one to discuss as most people have noticed it. Based on this alone I would suggest delaying the rework just because of how important clarity is for fighting games. We will start out with the worst offender which will be his chain heavies. Now not all of the situations are bad. Same side heavies look a little jank but are pretty fine as is. I think the primary issue for same side attacks is transitioning between a light or a heavy on the same side. It looks like it's dropping some frames instead of the usual smoothed out animation that is hidden thanks to the CCU changes. In addition to that it feels like switching from top to right (from conq's PoV) or vise versa ends up with really off animations. Left side to right side and vise versa seems fine. And left to top or vise versa seems fine as well. In addition to that all of his same side for top animations look clean enough.

This to me indicates the animations themselves can be cleaned up a bit to look less janky. I think the primary cause for this is the absence of the spin transitions that live conq has. Perhaps these had to go in order to make room for the new current chain heavy animation which is the same animation as the fully charged heavy animation. I appreciate that the devs have used the same animation for clarity on the attacks as not to confuse players with different animations. However because of this we are missing some key frames. I believe it wouldn't be hard to add some in to smooth out the transitions of the pain points outlined above. Feints and same side lights could probably use some frame smoothing as well but at least IMO they are not really needed to understand the action being done. I would however like to see a bit more animation smoothing for both scutage collection as well as soft feinting into his full block from his chain heavies. As is the transition for the latter looks abrupt as hell like it's meant to settle in from one spot to the next. But it hitches on one position before transitioning into the end position. For the former it just looks a bit messy because of how fast it transitions from superior block into the attack. On 60fps it's just noticable enough to understand what happened. But it could stand some improvement.


Scutage collection: Overall it's a very good addition to the kit as it fills the role his old zone did for outnumbered situations but it fits into what FH is now as a game. That being said the move itself has some glaring flaws. The first one being it is counterable. What I mean is low recovery zones and recovery cancels can avoid and even punish this move. Generally speaking each full block/superior block situation has both the unblockable and undodgable property. However Scutage collection does not have the undodgable property meaning recovery cancels can avoid it. And despite the fact that the move has the unblockable property it can still be parried by low recovery zone situations. This needs fixing. It's other issue is it's hitbox. It really only covers his left side up to the front some what. But it completely misses his right side. Considering the move is meant to be a "get off of me" tool it should really cover his entire self barring his back side.


Regarding full block cancel: As it currently stands Conq's full block cancel improves his ability to counter guard break when whiffing a bash from neutral and dodge things from neutral. In chain his full block cancel only improves his ability to dodge things from neutral. At current slow dodge attacks cannot punish him in any situation (slow being anything above 700ms when the attack lands,) fast dodge attacks (anything hitting 700ms or below) can pretty consistently punish his in chain dodge bash when done from a light hitstun. Neutral bash is inconsistent to punish for fast dodge attacks. Both situations require early dodge (meaning seeing orange and not indicator,) and early dodging can punish with a GB in some scenarios if you have good reactions. Dodge bashes barring LB's can consistently punish both neutral bash as well as chain bash from light hitstun. Unless you're LB. Charge bashes technically can't punish but force Conq into a mix up anyway.


Feat talk and misc: So Conq has two glaring issues not counting the above and feats. That would be a lack of a chase tool and a return of both flicker and option select. So for the former even though Conq's heavies got a nice improvement for range you can still easily escape conq's pressure after he has whiffed. This is very bad and reminds me of Black prior's situation. Pretty much every hero needs a chase tool at this point. As far as option select goes you can press heavy and dodge bash at the same time when dodging out of full block or just in general. This either will superior block for you and thus give you Scutage collection or it doesn't block an attack and you can bash the person instead. Shouldn't have to mention that this needs addressing. Flicker is actually back too. In Freeze's video he said it's probably easier to replicate for K&M players but I can pretty easily make it happen myself with a pad on console. It's an issue Ubi has fixed in the past though so they should have no problem fixing it again.

Beyond those things I want to briefly mention that conq's chain link times are longer out of lock than in lock. This isn't the "biggest" problem because you primarily only are out of lock when vising minions. Would be nice to have it addressed but it's not necessary. Another complaint I have is the hitboxes for his lights and heavies. In my opinion they are too small and thus generally only hit one player at a time. This is easily seen if you stand in minion lane surrounded by minions. Generally speaking both will only hit 2 and sometimes 3 minions. Considering Conq is being pushed into a team fighting role with his update hitboxes are really important for these scenarios and should be prioritized. Finally we get to his feats. While T1 and T2 selections are mostly fine as is his T3 and T4 are pretty lacking in both damage (compared to other T3 damage feats) and support. I know Ubi isn't in the habit of looking at feats when doing reworks but I STRONGLY suggest they look into his selections if they really would like to see Conq be used more in a 4's setting. As feats really hugely impact who gets picked for what.


My opinion overall and suggested changes: Overall I think they did a very good job with transitioning his identity over into a post CCU world. He still has defensive quirks that stand out amongst other heros defensive tools. Not having to worry about stamina with his full block tool is such a minor adjustment but it really hones in on the fortress feeling he's described as. Dodging out of his stance is completely unique to him unless you want to count Nobushi (I don't because she doesn't all block with her stance.) Finally having scutage collection exist along side his superior block options retains the identity of his old zone but in a more active fashion. Still being able to full block cancel his charged heavies is also a nice touch. And it feels so good to be able to regularly feint now.

Offensively what he has is kind of boring and it's effectiveness at high level play is...not consistent. This isn't entirely new as many forms of offense don't really cut it at that level of play. I cannot really express how I feel on that as I do not play at that level. All I can do is urge the devs to find a way to make offense more consistent at all levels of play. That all being said I like how his offense feels. Having an infinite chain that works regardless of what side you choose at any point, same side or not, heavy or light input, I feel works very well with the flail idea. Even if animation wise it leaves much to be desired in the "realism" department. I think the way his infinite works along side full block cancels and his retained defensive identity makes him unique enough. But I also do not blame people who don't spend as much time as I do analyzing combat and it's feel find it to be too same-ey to many other hero offerings.

All that aside though he does have some substantial issues as mentioned above. I really like how his full block cancels play out in terms of including a frame advantaged bash into the mix of options he has. But I also understand that for high level play this does open the window for players to reaction punish some options. It really depends on how Ubi wants his bashes to behave. There's a few different routes they can take with it. Beyond that Conq now enters the bracket of other heros that are capable of back whiffing a light into a cancel to let them both space and punish people attempting to deal with them. I could say "at least" his lights don't have CC properties like some other heros in this group have. But that doesn't really make it feel okay. The devs at one point did say they weren't okay with back step CC and one can assume that dislike could extend to back whiffing things in general. But until the devs give an updated assessment and statement on back whiffing it's just something we will have to continue to stomach for the time being. Anyway onto my suggestions:

• Add key frames to swapping from light to heavy/heavy to light animations on both the same side attacks as well as swapping from top to right and right to top
• Smooth the transition frames for full block cancels on charged heavy moves as well as feints
• Add a few more frames for blending the animation of superior blocking into Scutage collection
• Make Scutage collection undodgable and truly unpunishable
• Increase the hurt box trajectory of Scutage collection to extend to his right side as well
• Increase hurt box trajectory of side lights and heavies both neutral and in chain
• Reduce the damage of fully charged heavy from 32 to 28
• Give Conq a forward dodge heavy. Preferrably a 700ms heavy with generous input window, does not need to be feintable
• Reduce hitstun/block stun of chain heavies so punishing his chain bash in most situations can be done with a quick dodge attack. (hitstun values stay the same for flail uppercut and Scutage so Conq is encouraged to use his defensive tools to maintain peak offense)
• Fix out of lock light/heavy chain links to mirror his in lock chain link times
• Lengthen his time to GB recovery from 800ms on both his bashes to 900ms
• (If possible) make time to side dodge out of full block to be 1 or 2 more frames longer but keep his forward dodge out of full block at 33ms
• Failing that make the time it takes to enter full block from a whiff longer than current (either issue should fix reactionary punishment for high level play)
• For Tier 3 Buff Pugno Mortis from 40 damage to 50 damage possible with an increased radius from 8 meters to 10. Now has damage drop off like LB's Ignus ember. Heal on block replaced with Second wind
• For Tier 4 Buff Catapult time to land from 2000ms to 1500ms. Reduce overall possible damage from 200 to 150. Create a sharper damage drop off and increase it's radius from 8 meters to 10. Replace Uninterruptable with Morale booster.

If you made it this far thank you for reading. As always see you in the next thread~

Nuxia is one of the most unique heros from a mechanical stand point even in todays world where we have a hero with an actual gun. However she's never really gotten time to shine. Her kit circles around the trap mechanic which unfortunately is a very inconsistent mechanic. Even in a post CCU world where swapping your guard away to counter makes it unreactable you can still react to "counter" the trap by emoting on indicator or lighting into it since she has to trap in your current guard direction. Her traps are also the way to recycle her offense and as we've seen with the likes of Raider this is a very good thing to have that's pretty essential for chain based heros. However unlike Raider Nuxia's recyclable offense isn't great. And this is in part because her kit does not really have anything to compliment her traps. Finally we have her feats, Deadly duet is a nice concept in theory but you're hard pressed to consistently find 1v1 situations especially in a meta about team fights. Caltrops is a bit too strong considering it's a T2 feat. Thread of fate is an okay effect but isn't as powerful because it only effects one target. And infection is hard to actually use with it's short effect time of 10 seconds. My rework is going to touch on what traps mean for her kit, how to make her kit compliment with her traps, and a touch up of her unique feats.


Traps: To elaborate a bit further traps are kind of complex in that they don't really work like traditional soft feint offense as it's a mechanic that tries to solve defensive play which for arguments sake is not generally what you deal with in a dominion match very often outside of one situation. To further complicate traps they revenge lock, can be used to trap two of three directions if positioned properly, feed about a bashes worth of revenge wether they land or not, and Nuxia herself can be peeled before she actually gets to do damage since the trap itself doesn't do damage. It is difficult to outright buff her traps because of how potentially strong they can be if you make some minor adjustments. So I feel in order to buff her Traps into effective tools we need to first adjust some of these things:

Trap changes:

• Traps no longer do a follow up for damage
• Traps no longer revenge lock

I've gone on record of saying that I like revenge lock as an idea for a mechanic. However the devs have taken most methods to do so out of the game for clarity sake and I can only imagine Nuxia still has it because the devs have forgotten she has that effect. Regardless of it being intentional or not it would be insanely imbalanced of her to get my proposed power increase and be able to deny revenge while doing so. In a similar vein I think removing damage as a possibility for landing a trap is fine. Primarily because you get peeled often anyway. Removing this option in favor of utility is my idea. So with those 2 changes in mind here is what I propose traps become:

Trap buffs:

• Traps can now be triggered via soft feint or blocking
• Trap soft feint is now a bash with a hitbox and is dodgable
• Pressing GB on block automatically traps the person

I have always been a fan of two things mechanically when it comes to rework ideas. Messing with the block state, and messing with feints. While I had some what of a rework already in my head I was struggling to put the glue together to make it fit. The new hero showcase was educational and helped me come up with this solution partially. Essentially I want her traps to enhance her kit and the only way to do that is to have her traps land more often. By giving Nuxia 2 situations that lead to traps this makes it harder to just shut her out. It addresses emoting as you'll eat the bash if you emote on indicator. This doesn't prevent someone from stuffing her with a light but hitstun will and that we will get into later. I chose to have the inverse of the hero because Trap's identity was built off of blocking. She'll be just as scary with taps from external still as well and in my opinion this setup warrants her traps as a mechanic feeding more revenge than basic attacks do where imo her current situation doesn't warrant it even given the potential traps currently have.


Trap follow ups: Now that we've set the foundation for what traps are I have to explain what her traps lead into. The idea behind this rework is to give Nuxia a conditional activation mechanic (traps) that makes her moves better. Basically the easy way to think of it as landing trap gives X property to a move. With that explanation done here are the benefits of landing a trap:

• Next heavy is an unblockable finisher
• Next light input is an undodgable chain starter light
• Pressing GB and a direction is a throw

The idea is very simple, you're mixing between an undodgable 500ms light that is low damage but keeps your combo potential (aka the recycle component,) and a higher damage finisher that ends chains but gives you the potential for more damage if the throw ends up throwing someone into a wall or other person. But you also get the option to get a throw that doesn't guarantee damage for Nuxia herself. This would allow her to stall someone in revenge by throwing them into a wall or potentially ledge someone. (note that heavy finishers when they throw are automatic. So you cannot land her heavy finisher and then trap after.)

Enhancing the rest of the kit: So we've established what traps are now and what they do. We've retained the ability for her to recycle her offense. But now we need to bring the rest of her kit up to speed. Her mid chain is a particularly interesting area to look at because at the moment she only has two 400ms lights. She does have the capability to include her zone into her chains and i've always assumed that this option existed to throw off the timing of her opponent in some way. However it's slow speed pretty much prevents it from ever being a mix up. And finally we also should look at her deflect.

Proposed changes:

• Mid chain lights are enhanced
• The first half of Nuxias zone can be stuffed into her chain as an undodgable 600ms unfeintable heavy from Nuxia's left side
• Neutral zone now hits twice. First hit being 500ms and the second hitting at 900ms. Second half remains trappable both through the soft feint as well as if it is blocked.
• Deflect is now guaranteed at 15 damage and is a chain starter. Can swap guard for a 20 damage chain starting light that isn't guaranteed.

So mid chain lights assure that Nuxia can continue to attack unless she is stopped through a parry or runs out of stamina. Considering the low damage they are I find this to be fair. But I can see an argument for lowering it from 9 to say 7 or 8 for this property to exist. Nuxia's zone being a two part attack isn't exactly original however I wanted it to have a purpose specifically for being in chain. Conq used to have a zone that could be held for multiple swings but his new zone is just a single swing of his old zone. So that's where I got the idea to add just the first half of the zone specifically in mid chain only. It is slower in chain as to not be super oppressive and an easier time to parry. But the pro is that if someone is trying to dodge mid chain you now have two undodgable options. For the regular zone I wanted to make it more usable. Unfortunately because of the way traps work in my idea her unique trap animation on landing the zone trap has to be scrapped. However i'm hoping with my changes it still makes her zone unique enough.


Cleaning up/values and numbers: Before I get into the feat adjustments I need to list values for the things I mentioned above as well as addressing one final thing that is her dodge attacks. So let's speed through this:

• Dodgable bash trap is 500ms
• Traps feed 30 revenge (note this is their current value but since they're no longer doing damage they also don't apply revenge twice. number is subject to change if 30 is too low.)
• Enhanced mid chain lights are 7-9 damage depending on what people think is fair trade for the ehanced property
• Mid chain zone is 600ms 12 damage
• Neutral zone 1st hit 500ms second hit occurs at 900ms 12 damage 1st hit 2nd hit 16 (so 28 total which is what her zone is currently if it lands.)
• Heavy finisher damage is now 26 from 30 (due to power level increase)
• Heavy opener damage is now 20 from 24 (due to power level increase)
• Deflect guaranteed is 15, swapped is 20 and the speed of non guaranteed is 500ms.
• Side dodge attacks now can be input from 200ms-300ms instead of being fixed at 300ms.
• All dodge attacks and parry counter retain medium hitstun. All other instances removed.
• Can now recovery cancel with dodges from her finishers and after a trap lands.
• Slightly increased trajectories and tracking for her dodge attacks as well as her mid chain heavies and finisher heavies.

I snuck in some recovery cancels at the end there because she is a "dancer" with weapons that were intended to fit that. However considering her entire kit with my buffs I thought that giving her recovery cancels after everything would be a bit much. I wanted at least some part of her kit to retain the medium hitstun properties that most people forget about purely because it's relatively unique to her. It should help prevent stuffing in some situations but doesn't completely remove it as an option. But i'm open to debate with this personally. And the dodge attack changes are just to make them more usable/comfortable without making them power houses defensively. The input change isn't strictly necessary and I don't hold hopes that the devs will ever willingly include delayable windows again outside of new hero releases.


Feats: Unlike the extensive retooling of her kit i'm not going to be making major changes to her kit. I thought about potentially letting her activate a feat mid chain like the new hero did but ultimately I felt that would just be excessive (as it would be tagged onto trap sections,) and not really add much to her kit. So here are my suggested feat changes:

• Deadly duet name changed to Deadly dancer. Deal 16% more damage when near 2 or more enemies.
• Caltrops persist for 20 seconds (down from 25) with a delayed damage start of 500ms (instead of instant) Caltrops AoE buffed from 6 meters to 8 meters.
• Thread of fate is now Threads of fate. Can chain to multiple opponents from the original target.
• Infection lasts 20 seconds up from 10. Damage is now 5 a second instead of 10.

The main theme behind the tweaks is to give Nuxia more of a team presence as she's always been seen as the team fighting assassin despite her feats largely not playing into this role.
As usual because some of these are power level increases they have to be nerfed in some ways. Deadly dancer is a T1 feat that will potentially always be active for Nuxia. a 4% nerf isn't a lot though. I struggled to decide between keeping it passive but have it be a lower damage buff or let it become an active but retain the same or close to the same damage buff. The important factor here is that she can use it when near more than one person. So feedback on this is appreciated greatly. Caltrops are pretty disgusting as is for as short of a CD they have. I really am not fond of CD increases for balancing which is why I chose this route.

they already do 2 damage which is low. But the no animation + instant damage makes them (imo anyway) unintentionally strong in ganks and 1v1s. I always assumed the point of them was to have a persisting field of damage that at worst lets you clear minion lane and at best has interesting implications with team fights. So the changes made make it a bit more reasonable against players but slightly compensates for it by having a larger area of effect. The delayed damage gives some counter play as well as let people leave if they're on the edge instead of feeding renown. I thought of having a total damage cap exist along side it's regular active time to potentially address the issue vs players. Please let me know if you like that idea more than this one. Threads of fate is an interesting CC feat (similar to ring of fire works) in that it effects someone's movement. I do see how potentially snowbally it could be now that it effects multiple people. But you let me know. And finally infection. The potential it has is high with 100HP damage at least on 2 people. But that assumes you can keep two people near each other. As this is difficult and it only having 10 seconds of time it often feels like a whiff of a T4. So the idea is to let it persist longer potentially getting more damage out of the ability. But with a more reasonable damage per tick. Numbers here like with all of the other feat numbers are adjustable.


Closing statement/TLDR: The whole idea of Nuxia's rework was to make her identity as the hero who locks blades to be more fleshed out. I feel this is retained by having better access to her traps, better access to her throw mechanic on finishers, and having traps have a bigger more usable presence in her kit. She works as is, but seeing the game evolve as it has over time she's been left behind and her old ways of doing things do not compete with the FH of today. Above all I wanted her to remain unique despite having to lean more into blue/orange properties...even if this idea is a wash from a balance perspective I just hope that at the very least the ideas sounded/looked unique enough.

The TLDR is traps are now conditional "bashes" that you can access more easily. Said traps give a temporary "buff" to her chain attacks that let her get started with usable and recyclable offense. Thank you for reading.

@deathtocakl

Should notice that they haven't released a new assassin hero since Nuxia. They've also not given anyone a dodge light since marching fire either. This is likely their way of subbing out reflex guard since they can't/won't put in the effort to actually remove it from old heros. That being said they have been able to modify decay rate and did so with both Shinobi and Gladiator. So in theory they could adjust the decay rate to be super long so guard dropping before an attack is unlikely to happen.

The issue I have with reflex guard is less that (since you can just get good) and more having to refresh guard to block multiple hits. As if your timing is even slightly off there you're going to take hits and be helpless.

@shogun3554

Correct, but every character should be effective offensively. Of which Kensei isn't. You can have more defensive oriented heros and they can still have competent and consistent offense. My favorite example in a fighting game of this is Ultra Instinct Goku in Dragon ball fighter Z. That guy is absolutely kitted out defensively boasting way more defensive options than any other character in the game. Yet even he is still more than viable offensively. He just lacks any kind of power house offensive tools that other characters have.

I'm not asking for Kensei to get turned into Raider who is an actual power house for offensive capability. I want him updated so that he's relevant in end game pvp for something besides just good recoveries on landed finishers.

@csodaszarvas_g

That's fine I just wanted more than one instance to feel okay with hopping on that idea. Thanks for looking!

@lostdarknight

My opinion on Pirate isn't important. But no, she's over tuned. I like her design she just needs some adjustment. First batch of nerfs are good and hurt her ganks which is good. I'm assuming a second group of changes will follow in the near future touching on some of her safety. They just gotta be careful here to not over do it. I don't want her to disappear from Comp play like Orochi and Gryphon did when the devs overcorrected both.

I understand the game can be triggering. I limit how much I play because I get upset either at bad teammates or the game screwing me over in places like weapon wall bounces or it ignoring an input or doing something I didn't input. I have much more fun with FH this way.

He's where he should've been a week ago. He feels much better to play with in terms of interacting with his entire kit. That being said he's still a pretty far cry from where he should be. This update shouldn't/hopefully isn't the last one he gets.

His damage is overtuned (but so are several other heros.) Beyond that some stamina costs could be slightly increased. But other than that yeah he's in a good spot.

I think you're being hit because Tiandi's finishers are 400ms and PK's DA's don't come out till the earliest of 300ms into her dodge. IIRC Valk has 2 400ms attacks of both her in chain top light and top light finisher. If you're still getting hit by her 500ms lights/finishers then perhaps you can't DA to punish opening lights without potentially eating a combo light. But I don't want to put my stake in that claim without testing.

Deathtocakl would be correct in saying that it's not a pk specific problem if that is the case. I think saying PK is bad overall because of this is a stretch, though I would agree that PK's dodge attacks aside from their damage are the worst things in her kit. They have a huge amount of recovery on whiff for some reason which can happen often because her DA's don't have much range. Combining that with her DA coming out 300ms at the earliest and it feels like hell. She's not the only hero with this timing and we can easily point that it feels bad in those instances as well. But unfortunately I don't see it changing because both Kyoshin (a new hero release,) and reworks like Hito's have this timing. Meaning it's a deliberate choice made by the devs.

@picoancus

Lighting him out of his neutral zone is technically an option if you start from true neutral as if he landed either a chain zone or a chain finisher heavy the hitstun on both would basically guarantee you won't interrupt his soft feints. However you're risking being light parried against a hero who very quickly makes massive health swings thanks to his over tuned damage profile. So "yes" you can light his zone opener just as early dodge is also technically an option. But both are very risky. There are better instances when vsing raider when it's more acceptable to try and interrupt.

Storming tap is completely unreactable if you're a person who looks for indicators. This is totally appropriate in some situations like Orochi because you can easily spot when his storm rush is being used because the indicator immediately disappears. However a lot of reaction based play at high levels focus more on animations. In raider's case he has a very distinct animation of his feet leaving the ground when he goes for tap. This is why I recommended if you are playing solid guard to block top. Because you can still protect yourself whilst looking for his feet to jump. Nobushi is another character where you can react specifically because her feet leave the ground.


I will have to disagree. I don't play at high level/comp level so I could be wrong in my assertion here. But I block top basically naturally because it's far easier for my brain to make me block left or right on indicator than it is for me to swap to top guard. It just feels more natural. When I fight raider i'm already blocking top. Then I simply just choose in my head what I believe the character is going to do. If I think he's going to soft feint to GB then I just look for blue. If I think he's going to commit to or feint his chained zone I just pay attention to indicator and dodge if the soft feint window has passed. Obviously this is still a difficult choice reaction and my method doesn't rip his offense to pieces. But it is specifically why Raider doesn't blow me up on average. I'm sure against an actually good player he'd mess me up more. But average players are too predictable. So when I get rolled it's usually just because i'm playing badly. There's never been more than 2 heros at any given time that I actually struggle against.

I know Raider is S tier competitively in both duels and dominion. My response wasn't to disprove or dispute that. Just tactics that you can employ given specific circumstances. I like many others think his damage definitely needs to be pulled down. And probably an increase to stamina consumption. But mechanically what his kit is capable of is more than fine IMO.

@DarrowsHowlers

Dude unless the person literally asks for it you're just shoving words in their mouth. They asked for a soft feint to fix the reactability issue with the intended mix. Like. Actually read what's being typed instead of flying off the handle and speaking something that was never talked about.

"His entire kit is dash attacks and recovery cancels. You should be able to see why people hate that"

Yeah and that matters why? Feelings are not arguments for balance.

"Infinite chains are just bad for the game."

To your vision of the game.

"There is also nothing unique about Orochi."

Same could be said about many heros in the game. FH has designed it's characters to be "unique" in how they use tools in the game for awhile now.

"He is just a bland clone with infinite annoying dash attacks"

Imposing your own feelings on a character as grounds for changing is a joke.

"And I also don't understand why they just haven't made neutral bashes 800ms like the new heroes and made them feintable. That would solve the issues of anybody reacting to the orange."

You quite literally just complained about Orochi not being unique and called him a clone and then followed up by suggesting offense get fixed on bashes by everyone having the same kind of bash. Actual clown behavior. But I don't expect actual logic to come from someone who suggested buffing Aramusha because he supposedly doesn't have good offense when he has an infinite loopable and unreactable to everyone soft feint bash from neutral that can only be punished with a hard read of a GB.

@BagginBrooks

You're correct! I'd forgotten about that.

@downbikachu

"I suggest giving orochi the ability to soft feint his storm rush into a kick at any point during the animation."

If I recall correctly when the comp players were asked how to make his intended mix better this was the suggestion they made.
The only reason why they hadn't thought of doing that (imo anyway) is because afaik we've never had a move that can soft feint from a UD to a UB or vise versa.
Though probably the real reason why they haven't is because the mix is "effective enough" for regular players and comp finds value from him elsewhere.

"People need to rip the bandaid off that is the terms "Console For Honor" and "Spam.""

Unfortunately you are barking up the wrong tree here. The reasonable people who used to post here have more or less abandoned this place. It's basically a FHrants sub but not on reddit.

@DarrowsHowlers

"it's supposed to be reactable."

Storm rush quite literally was never designed to be reactable. That's why it's always hidden it's indicator for a portion of it's movement even before the CCU. They just eventually standardized how much was hidden by making them all be the best number of the three when he got reworked the second time.

"the point is to catch people dodging in anticipation of the kick."

The problem is it doesn't. Storm rush and Dust Devil kick have two entirely different animations that even a console player (source I am one) can train to react to. Storm rush always ducks forward, DD always flies forward with it's feet off the ground. That is exactly why OP is asking for a buff.

"Making it quicker would only cause more of a spam issue against console players than it already does."

OP did not ask to make it quicker. They asked for a functional mix to work as intended via adding a soft feint. Also skill issue. If you understand FA/FD rules his mix is easily stopped. The only "actual" OP thing about him is that storm rushes hit confirm animation locks someone longer than a normal move does which only effects gank setups/team fights and not FA/FD.

The problem is either the players getting blown up do not understand these CCU rules or they do not respect them.

"The characters design is very flawed. Imo Oro needs a redesign, not a buff."

Being something you don't like isn't grounds for a rework. The kit already got two total reworks and this one is clearly the good one. Roach is perfectly fine as is in 4's atm if you play to his strengths. But it's also completely reasonable to expect his main mix up to be more consistent.

@Shogun3554

Long time no see! To put it quite simply it's a team fight buff. Generally speaking we have 2 kinds of ways to "team fight." The former is what most people are used to/think of where you use wide hitboxes (often with either hyper armor or unblockable as a property.) The latter is through recovery cancels. Basically because Berzerker cannot be given decent sized hitboxes they have decided to give him recovery cancels. Currently Berzerker actually cannot throw chain based moves and have them whiff other wise his recovery is too long and it's nearly a guaranteed punish for people at a competitive level.

The addition of giving him recovery cancels shouldn't really buff his 1v1 since he doesn't have anything threatening from neutral nor does he have any enhanced moves from neutral. Hope the explanation helped!


EDIT: Fwd dodge light is enhanced and I forgot. bweh.

@Csodaszarvas_G

"But when it comes to spears and blunt weapons... just grab them and swing or stab at the enemy, there's no complications."

I largely agree with your post but I want to point out that this statement isn't accurate. More to say you're not wrong in that it's easier to be effective with them. But they also have their own things you need to be mindful of.

Spears or really any kind of pole-arms need to be kept with proper grips otherwise you can easily distribute the weight wrong and have the weapon slip from your hands or have it easily deflected away from you. People often also take the extra range they offer for granted and over extend their thrusts which makes the feat of disarming the person much easier. Or worse they use the weapon against you to move you closer or knock you over via trapping the weapon. Not to mention you still need decent accuracy to hit vital spots as random poking even into something like lighter armor isn't going to have as good of an effect. Targeting someone's arms to disarm them via a cut is a lot harder to do with a pole-arm than a sword as an example.

Blunt weapons are the simplest sure but in their regard you want to learn how to properly strike blows in important spots. This is because a lot of the "power" of blunt weapons comes from your own actual strength. If you're just bopping someone wildly you can easily tire yourself out. Thus making blows in important areas harder to do. The bigger concern with blunt weapons really is just finding an opening. It's sort of hard to get aggressive against an opponent who has a sword since any damage they would do to you is immediately more threatening than you to them if they're at all protected. You'd be mainly looking for opportunities in their footwork for exposure.

Either to get their knee caps or potentially even their back if they over expose. Smashing the head is probably the most ideal target as even if it is armored the force can still cause disorientation. But it's probably the hardest to hit. All this to say that yes, swords are indeed quite intimidating to learn and use effectively compared to the other two. But it's a bit of a misconception that those weapons are "easy" to use. It's just different shades of things to learn.

@Csodaszarvas_G

If it is feintable I don't imagine it would refund the cooldown completely. Probably half of it at most. But I'm super interested if it can or not just because I really want that for Hitokiri's 4th. As for two Afreea's bumping each other I think it would probably work similar to GB's that bounce off of each other and they go on CD. JC did say there was some nuances to the kit that they didn't go over so I gotta wonder what else is in there.

"Yeah, competitively, you're right.."
Competitively she's a good team fighter still. Just bad everywhere else. As I mentioned in a different reply I more consider her bad now just because she's too gimmicky being only decent at one thing. Like I also consider Centurion to be just as bad as her right now even though Casual players probably find him to be easier to deal with compared to Pirate. I don't mind the idea of heros having more rigid roles but I think every hero should be consistent across the roster in terms of being able to do one's. And she can't thus my issue.

"It's not necessarily about how powerful/viable she is but rather her overall design and how it feels to fight her."

That's fair. Everyone has heros they don't enjoy fighting or struggle against regardless of how strong the character is overall.

"Which despite the nerfs did not really change that much imo. I think it's still bad."

Separate topic to discuss somewhere else at some other time I suppose but just to me specifically I don't think nerfs should be looked at to make a hero play differently. They should be used to bring down power and occasionally remove something in specific scenarios. But yeah, I can at least acknowledge that it would be frustrating to have a hero adjusted downwards and it still not make the fight against them feel better. That would be frustrating.

BUT ANYWAY. Between Afeera and Jorm rework I'm looking forward to playing the game again.

@DarrowsHowlers

• "Pirate is S tier lol."

For dominion/brawls when she launched. She has received several nerfs since then and is no longer considered S tier in them. She was never close to S tier in duels.

• "She can dash cancel galore with one of the games strongest dodge attacks."

Which was nerfed to 600ms. The only strong thing about the DA ever was it's hitbox. Which doesn't have any application in duels.

• "This also means infinite forward heavies that have super quick gb invulnerability, armor and unblockable."

You mean the very reactable fwd unblockable that had it's damage and armor nerfed and it's soft feint removed? Even at it's "prime" it was a bad move and the devs even acknowledged it sucked as an opener. They adjusted it because it was frustrating for worse players to deal with. It never works as a mid chain offense either due to several number factors so using it in there doesn't work in a duels scenario. Oh and even before the nerf the armor never traded in favorable situations for the Pirate anyway. It was only good at taking late interrupts.

• "Undodgeables"

That are 500ms light finishers with basically zero range to them.

• "Wallsplat unblockable mixup."

Wallsplats are pretty unlikely in most given scenarios which is irrelevant anyway since all of her unblockables are incredibly reactable. Not to mention Walk the plank had it's chain link to Gunshot nerfed. Meaning if she ever takes the guaranteed gunshot her soft feint will no longer catch 90% of the dodge attacks in the game.

• "Too say she is pretty bad just wreaks noob odor."

She launched being bad in duels and has had enough nerfs to her that her ganks are considered pretty bad now. All she has going for her is being a decent team fighter. Perhaps you're alright with a hero being that niche but I'm not. Also it's not like I can't make her work, even Jorm can work up to decent individuals. That's more of a testament on how awful people generally are rather than anything concrete about a hero's health state.

I've stated before and I'll state it again, my interest on a hero's capabilities lies within the competitive scene and there she falters in too many areas for my liking. This thread isn't even about the character to begin with. You just couldn't help yourself when someone disagreed with your feelings on a character. I'm giving you this reply alone. If you want anymore discourse with me about Pirate at least be polite enough to do it in a thread that concerns her.

@Csodaszarvas_G

"I wonder though that how her third one will turn out."

I'm curious if she can be bashed out of it and if she blocks with it does it stop her charge? Or does the attack just bounce off and she continues? If she blocks with it does she get a follow up? etc. Given that it's the same charge she has from neutral I wonder if it's feintable/can be flipped out of. I saw some people make this claim but I rewatched the den again last night and didn't hear them mention either thing.

"Yeah, Kyoshin slowly but surely just got out of hand. At this point I honestly believe that he is worse than Pirate."

=( But also not really hard to make that comparison now that Pirate is pretty bad lol.

@Night_Fury147

Her relentless reach probably behaves like Shaman and berzerker who have unique chase animations if done far enough away. Both can whiff.

@MrGrippz

It was posted????